From: matus [matus@snet.net] Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 10:25 PM To: matus@snet.net Subject: MFD List - Nixon, Cambodia, and Vietnam (All, this is from a few conversations I have had recently regarding foreign policy and more specifically Richard Nixon and Vietnam. This starts off by comments made on an extropian mailing list I am part of regarding one of Nixon's many quotes from taped conversations. Follows is my response to that and discussions of some of the particular topics addressed by the original author. Nixon, Vietnam, and Foreign policy have been a frequent topic of conversation between me and fellow list member Will, from which I have learned a lot from in these past few months regarding foreign policy. We as a nation should re-evaluate our conceptions of Richard Nixon to a significant degree, as well as our attitude toward foreign policy. - Mike) "You know, it's a funny thing, every one of the bastards that are outfor legalizing marijuana is Jewish. What the Christ is the matter with the Jews, Bob? What is the matter with them? I suppose it is because mostof them are psychiatrists." -- President Nixon, 26 May 1971 --------------------- Hi there. As a fellow extropian and future minded individual I would like to introduce myself. I am 25 and live in Eastern CT, I study in my spare time history, politics, science, and philosophy. With that in mind, I would like to make a comment about your email Tag, the Richard Nixon quote. Nixon recorded very nearly all his conversations at the white house, including thouse with Aids and covering such trivial things as place settings at dinners and curtain colors. In total, there was nearly 4,000 hours of recordings of Nixon on these tapes. Given that generation, it is not surprising that racial comments were prevelant, as they were with most people of any race in that generation. However, as Charles Krauthammer, an author and columnist for Jewish World Review said "I wonder how anyone would fare who had an open microphone in his office for 3,700 hours running." (http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/krauthammer101899.asp) The author encourages that we look at what Nixon did, not what he says. Of course, thoughts of Vietnam and the Watergate scandal spring to mind. When in reality, Nixon did more as much for this country and people of all races as the most notable presidents this nation has seen. For starters, Nixon opened Diplomatic relations with China, a strong communist nation at the height of the cold war, something completely and totally un-heard of, in fact his secretary of state Henry Kissinger called him crazy for suggesting such a thing (Kissinger later tried to take credit for this feat) Fearing a strong US - China partnership, the formerly closed and overt communist nation of the Soviet Union jumped on the bandwagon and within weeks negotiated to meet with Nixon. Nixon was the first US president to see the capitol of Russia, and negotiated with the Soviet union the first Arms Control agreement. An act that severely lowered the likely hood of mutual nuclear annihalation, something of primary concern to any future minded individual. When Nixon resigned because of the Watergate 'scandal' (which never even involved Nixon) The leader of the North Vietnemese army went on record stating his assuridity of victory directly because of that resignition. 58,000 US troops were killed in vietnam during the more than 10 year conflict. In the first six MONTHS following the withdrawel of US troops, 1 million south vietnemese civilans were executed. Another 600,000 South Vietnemese fearing the communist invaders took off into the south China Sea in make shift rafts, most drowned. Cambodia fared even worse, Pol Pot and the Khamir Rouge took power with full support and backing from the North Vietnemese army and supplies being shipped in from Russia, they burned the cities down (they were symbols of capitalism) executed any educated individual (tradesmen, doctors, also symbols of capitalist) and anyone who had money on them, All told they executed a thid of the Cambodian population, between 2.5 million and 3.5 million people, and forcibly changed the name of every citizen left. The ones who survived lost their families and were forced into slave labor farming. Nixon also commissioned the first Nuclear Breeder Reactor, a type of reactor that will re-fission spent nuclear fuel and can extract up to 125 times as much energy as conventional reactors. A handfull of these reactors could supply all the energy needs of the United States, and Nixon commissioned these as an attempt to diminish dependance on foreign oil, back in the late '60s. It was the only one ever built, and since the Carter Administration it has been illegal to build new nuclear plants. Instead the US gets over 70% of its domestic energy from burning coal and oil, the majority of which is imported from the handfull of oil producing nations. Nixon also initiated the War on Cancer As far as Nixon's race relations, he started affirmitive action at construction sites in Philidelpia, introduced programs to help blacks start and own business (which the congress 'surprisingly' didnt help too much on). Nixon also nearly single handedly dessegregated southern schools. Indeed, at the onset of Nixon's term, 6% of black children went to integrated schools, by the end of his term 93% did. An astounding accomplishment. But what of Nixon 'Jewish problem' (which your email sig obviously acknowledges) again I quote Charles Krauthammer article "Herb Stein, who died last month, was chairman of Nixon's Council of Economic Advisers. Reflecting on Nixon's Jewish problem, he wrote that he never felt anything but the utmost respect and friendship from Nixon. Whatever Nixon's private thoughts, both in his personal relations and in his public actions as president, he was a friend of the Jews." Indeed, on October 6th, 1973 a surprise attack on Isreal from a coalition of Arab nations left the nation on the brink of destruction. On October 9th Nixon guaranteed the Isreal Prime minister "all your aircraft and tank losses will be replaced." Nixon saved the jewish state of Isreal from almost certain destruction with a massive airlift of weapons and supplies, odd behavior for an antisemite. Regards Matus ------------------- "! You mean he didn't order the break-in?" There has never been any evidence that suggested he did. In the 30 years liberal historical revisionists have been trying to find the evidence nothing has surfaced. Whatever 'official' news source you look for information on about the watergate break-in never says anything other than Nixon's "alleged" involvment. When you read the accounts of the break in they read like the theifs trained at the home alone criminologist school, it seemed more like they were trying to get caught. "I don't know the details of Nixon & China, or how many South Vietnamese were killed by the North upon victory. But I do know a thing or two about Cambodia, and I can use this as a scale to determine your veracity. I'm afraid it doesn't look so good." Well, you may consider my information biased about the Nixon China account, but the events are all emprically edifiable. In a related conversation I had recently, I had this to say about Nixon and China, in case you are interested. "Okay, let’s instead talk about Nixon’s chummy relationship with Chinese mass murderers." Okay, lets. But first lets mention the 3 million vietnemense / cambodians who were killed because the US pulled out of the conflict. Nixon was not around at the onset of the communist revolution in china, and if he were, and he was president, Im sure he would have tried to do something about it, and many millions of chinese lives might have been saved. But since China was already a strong nation, there wasnt much Nixon could do militarily about it. But a little ways south, the communist north vietnemese were invading the mercantile south with supplies and weapons fed from communist Soviet union (after JFK approved the previous south vietnemese leader's execution for not being west friendly enough). If Nixon intervened in the So viet supply lines, it might be taken as an act of aggression against the communist nations together, so he negotiated with China and opened the doorway to stop the soviet fed north veitnemese by mining the main harbor supply lanes. Thus he guaranteed that a bombing in the North capital Hanoi (the home state of the aggressor nation, which the US had so far been forbidden to cross the border into) would not escalate the war and draw China into the conflict, but would instead expidate the end of the war, saving countless lives, and working to put an end to communist expansion. Also, within weeks of Nixon's visit to China, Russia (fearing a strong US China coalition) invited Nixon to the Soviet Union, out of that visit came the first nuclear arms disarmement agreement. Severly reducing the threat of mutual global nuclear destruction, something definately of any future minded individuals concern. "The Khmer Rouge took control of the country without the direct backing of the NVA, after the US dropped support for stooge General Lon Nol" Cambodia would not have fallen fallen to the communists had the North never conquered South Vietnam. The North Vietnemese were using the Ho Chi Minh trail and controlled a good quarter of the eastern half of Cambodia during the height of the Veitnam conflict. The Cambodians had cut off relations with US because we backed South Vietnam in 1965. After we started bombing the North Vietnemese 'illegally' in Cambodia (who controlled the eastern quarter of the state) Prince Norodom Sihanouk re-established diplomatic relations with the United States. Why would he do this if he opposed the US escalation into Cambodia? Prince Norodom was removed in a coup by Lon Nol in 1970 while he was visiting the Soviet Union attempting to negotiate Aide. Lon Nol, formerly the head of the military, was a pro western person, and did not like where Norodom was taking the country. Norodom, the now deposed ruler, starts rallying the peasants to side with the Khmer Rouge. Lon Nol has an army of 200,000 people and could not have lost to an army of peasants unified by Norodom. In steps Soviet and Chinese Aide in the person and supplies of the North Vietnemese army. Could the Khmer Rouge have taken control of Cambodia with an army of peasants against a well armed standing military of Lon Nol? Probably not. It seems the only negative comment you have in the above statement is directed toward Lon Nol. How many people did he execute? (none) And how many did the Khmer Rouge execute? (1/3rd to 1/2 of the population) "Finally, three years after the revolutions, Vietnam got tired of Cambodian incidents on the border, and invaded." Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge had a vision of a dark skinned cambodian communism of 'pure' cambodians. They kept attacking the Vietnemese on the Boarder of Cambodia, Pol Pot was practically insane and thought that the Communist Vietnamese were conspiring with the KGB and CIA to overthrow him. Vietnam did not get 'tired' of the incidents on the border, they were planning an invansion for two years prior to 1979. After two years of stalling negotions while they ammassed troops and prepared for invasion, they finnally invaded Cambodia and Overthrew the Khmer Rouge in 1979. The assualt was rapid as the Vietnamese were still backed by soviet hardware and the peasantry hated the Khmer Rouge. During the Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge's reign from 1975 - 1979, the best evidence suggests that around 2.5 million people were executed, roughly 1/3rd of the entire Cambodian population. They replaced one oppressive communist regime with another, slightly less oppressive. They were kind enough to not execute the remaining 2/3rds. And you call Lon Nol the stooge? Not Pol Pot, who killed 1/3rd of the population? "Vietnam had some Soviet aid, I believe," About 7 - 9 Billion dollars in military Aide was supplied by the soviet union to back the north vietnemese communist expansion. 2 Billion in 1974 - 1975 alone. During the same time, the South Vietnemese recieved a whopping 600,000 dollars in aide, and Cambodia $0. All of this was occuring during the world wide shortage of Oil and economic downturn so the majority of the US supplied funds went to feeding the populace in South Vietnam. "but relations between the Cambodian communists and Moscow were icy." Norodom Sihanouk put his government in exile in Moscow. The Khmer rouge later recieved military aide from the Vietnamese to help overthrow 'the stooge' Lon Nol, supplies which initially came from the Soviet Union, and were no longer needed by the North Vietnamese since the US had withdrawn, thus thier invasion of the south was no longer receiving any resistance. "They were receiving advice and some economic assistance from Beijing, not Moscow." I was just curious then, where do you think their weapons came from? "The Khmer Rouge did not burn the cities down, they evacuated them." I dont really see what the functional difference is here, since the cities were no longer used anyway. Is forcing an evacuation really that less bad then burning the cities down? Many buildings were burned down, notably any financial institutions (evil symbols of capitalism) and any religious building (not very compatable with communism). The point is, the cities were removed forcibly from Cambodian society, at the cost of millions of lives. "They excuted roughly 1 million/7 million Cambodians, not "half the population" even in the wildest estimates." Are you defending the Khmer Rouge? 'only' 1/7 of the population, 1 million people? Yet you refer to Lon Nol as a stooge? Im not really understanding the reason why you speak negatively of Lon nol, yet defend the Khmer Rouge for 'only' killing 1 million people. Ill say that again, you are defending the khmer rouge saying that 'only' killed 1 million people. Do you have any idea how many people that really is? As I mentioned before though, some of the best evidence available puts that number at 2.5 million, CIA estimates suggest well over 3 million, indeed close to half the population. "It was, of course, the logical conclusion of the type of class warfare theorized in the Great Proletarian Cultural revolution of the PRC." Was there _anything_ logical in the cultural revolution? "All pretty good for a "Conservative", eh? Most of what you've pointed out above only convinces me further of Nixon's moral disgusting immorality." Making such moral judgements on Nixon's attempt to slow communist expansion while at the same time defending the khmer rouge for 'only' killing 1 million people seems to me to be intellectual dishonesty. You are more critical of Nixon then the Khmer Rouge. Within the first two years following the communist victory in Vietnam more people were killed then in the entire 10 year conflict. "You forget to "credit" him with his Wage and Price controls," I do not forget these things, but I judge them relatively to the value of the 3 million lives lost in south east asia that Nixon tried to do his best to stop, no thanks to the liberal media and non-interventionist protestors. I also judge these things relative to the effort to slow the expansion of an objectively horrible aggresive state system responsible for more than 100 million deaths in the last century. "his creation of the EPA, and his advancement of LBJ's Great Society programs. With Republicans like that, why bother with Socialists?" Because Republicans like that, oddly enough, care about the millions upon millions of lives lost in despotic corrupt foreign regimes and try to do something about it. Liberals generally adopt a policy of non-intervention, especially in vietnam and since, thus letting aggresive oppresive horrific nation states expand unabatted. While republicans, admittedly, do not fare well domestically in regards to personal freedoms, I value the lives of the millions lost to the corrupt states more than my dislike for prayer in school and high taxes. "Most Extropians are radical Capitalists, so I find it interesting that you not only identify as an Extropian, but post to an Extropian list and expect to convince using arguments based on Leftist notions like Statist "wars" on diseases, State forced race integration, and so forth. If you're here to troll, bring it on! " Extropians do not espouse a particular political philosophy, but instead tend to be unabatted technophiles. Such a philosophy generally melds well with domestic libertarianism (not domestic liberal nanny states or conservative freedom restrictions) However, such future minded optimism should necessarily entail a global approach to foreign policy, as oppresive controlling regimes in unfettered expansion would sure spell the end for extropian technophiles. (try to develop nanotech while being a peasant farmer) Again, I value the overall well being of the planet more than my taxes or comparitavily trivial domestic issues. I find it odd that you attack my supporting of Nixon, claiming that I am being leftist (apparently merely because he started the 'war on cancer' and the EPA) when at the same time you defend the Khmer Rouge for 'only' killing 1 million people, something right out of the Liberal Academic elite camp. I am praising Nixon for his very NON leftist foreign policy and rational understanding of the complex interactions in a globally connected society. I am not praising him for domestic restrictions of civil liberties, although I do believe that in the cultural and social context of the late 60's and early 70's he did far more to benefit people of all races with his limited ability to influence policy. Sure, he didnt end the nation state and turn the US into an anarcho capitalist utopia, but no one will, not for a long time. But he did make a significant difference in the politcal structure of the world, making it a far more extropian friendly place overall, mainly by trying and succesfully reducing the threat of oppressive anti-technology despotic nations from taking over the world and turning us all into poor farmers. "Geopolitics makes strange bedfellows. You can't possibly take a strategic move as an indication of personal attitudes." No, you are right, you can never be definately sure of internal motives from external actions. But in the real world, all we should look at is the external actions and what effect they had. Indeed, in the article I referenced, the Jewish Author said the very same thing, whatever Nixon's internal motivations were, he never acted outwardly in any manner that did not suggest a fondness for people of any race or nationality. Since we can never be sure of internal motives, then we should restrict ourselves to judging ones charachter based on their actions, and objective basis for a judgement, instead of what we believe they may have been thinking, something subjective and not verifiable. This is especially true in the presidential office, where external actions have drastic global consequencies (such as saving the state of isreal from near certain destruction). It is odd, also, that you mention a quote of Nixon that reflects some possible internal motivations (which contradict external actions) but miss the same tapings where Nixon directly expresses concern about the withdrawel from souteast asia, stating (paraphrasing from memory) that if we leave, theyll be slaughtered. With this quote and ones like them, we see some other possible internal motivations (Nixon cares for people 'gasp') with external actions to match them. And low and behold, Nixons concerns about withdrawing turned out to be correct, and millions were slaughtered. I would like to see their 3 million names added to the Vietnam memorial, of course it would be about 60 times larger. "At the time, Syria was a client state of the USSR, and Israel was our dog in the fight. The defense of Israel was identical to our defense of any of our other client states. Do you suppose our policies reflected the fact that JFK, LBJ, and Tricky Dick personally liked Vietnamese people?" Most of this is reflected in the comment above, but I would wonder what JFK did to reflect the affection of South Vietnamese besides ordering the assassination of their elected leader, Ngo Dinh Diem, which is what destabalized the South Vietnamese governement in the first place. "Nobody enjoys a good rant more than me. Welcome to the list!" Thank you, I hope to have many more engaging conversations on this list! Thanks! Matus www.matus1976.com - Article archives