Eudaemonists Mailing List Archive

From: Lee Corbin [lcorbin_tsoft.com]
Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 1:42 AM
To: Eudaemonists_Matus1976. Com
Subject: [eudaemonists] Casualties

Isn't it true that the U.S. loses about 1 man every two days
in Iraq due to combat?

(By the way, what is the reason for the rather greater loss
due to non-combat events? I don't understand.)

In contrast, the U.S. lost approximate 20 men per day in
Vietnam, and about 200 men per day in World War II.

Thus, U.S. casualties were forty times as bad in Vietnam,
and World War II was ten times as bad as Vietnam. Also,
the U.S. population is now increasing at about 10,000 per
day, and one might consider about one in ten to be war
material in a crunch. That's about 1000 per day. So
every two days, the number of potential American fighting
men goes up about 2,999 or so, one having died in Iraq.

I reckon that in World War II with a population half what
the U.S. has now, it could add---with normal birthrates
and little immigration---perhaps about the same number it
was losing.

(Germany, it would appear---losing 4 million men in four years
or so---lost on the order of 3,000 per day, but who knows
how fast their population was increasing? If every woman
had four children, I think that would work out to about a
million non-replacement births per year, or an increase of
about... hmm... 3000 per day. But since only about one in
ten could be soldiers, that's only 300 new men each day.
I conclude that Hitler's casualties were about ten times
what Germany could replenish.)

Lee

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From: Spudboy100_aol.com
Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 2:20 AM
To: lcorbin_tsoft.com; eudaemonists_matus1976.com
Subject: Re: [eudaemonists] Casualties

Lee:
<< But since only about one in
ten could be soldiers, that's only 300 new men each day.
I conclude that Hitler's casualties were about ten times
what Germany could replenish.)

Lee>>

In Iraq, there is the notion that this should've been concluded by now. The reason for going to Iraq WMD, lies hidden in Lebannon's Bekka valley; under the care of the Hezbollah. I suspect, though I have no proof that the Prez is avoiding additional conflicts (too early!) with Syria and Iran. The American losses are because of lack of planning and lack of resolve to crush Iraqi resistance. We either needed to jump in with both feet, and secure the country *I don' buy into this liberation talk, spouted from DC (although in some cases this surely was true!) at all. We surely didn't liberate Japan; now we need to couch a military operation in politically correct labels? Sigh!

One of the reasons Bin Ladin hasn't been caught is because he has been given a free pass by Pakistan's ISI, as well as having (his) charity organizations which do his financing, privately funded by the Saudi citzenry. The Prez needs to make some hard decisions because a plurality of the US voters, will not tolerate a long continuous skirmish, sans compelling reasons. In other words, like his Dad and Clinton before him; he shan't have his cake and eat it too, in the Middle East. Not after 9-11.

From: Mike Lorrey [mlorrey_yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 3:46 PM
To: lcorbin_tsoft.com; Eudaemonists_Matus1976. Com
Subject: Re: [eudaemonists] Casualties

--- Lee Corbin <lcorbin_tsoft.com> wrote:
> Isn't it true that the U.S. loses about 1 man every two days
> in Iraq due to combat?
>
> (By the way, what is the reason for the rather greater loss
> due to non-combat events? I don't understand.)

If you look at the number of US servicemen in Iraq and at actuarial
tables, you'd find that US servicemen are experiencing FEWER accidental
deaths in Iraq than they would experience in their normal lives at
home. They are experiencing fewer deaths because, primarily, most all
do not do much driving in POVs in their free time while in Iraq, nor
are they driving to and from work in POVs. They also have less access
to bars, other people's spouses/girlfriends/boyfriends/daughters, and
fewer tourist opportunities.

It is rather disengenuous for the media to count accidental deaths in
their body counts, given these statistical realities.

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
- Gen. John Stark
Blog: Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com
Flight sims: http://www.x-plane.org/users/greendragon/
Pro-tech freedom discussion:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exi-freedom

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From: Lee Corbin [lcorbin_tsoft.com]
Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 4:54 PM
To: Eudaemonists_Matus1976. Com
Subject: RE: [eudaemonists] Casualties

Mitch writes

> In Iraq, there is the notion that this should've been concluded by now.

Yes, and evidently a lot of people here also think that this should have
been over and done with by now. The rules are

(I) if something is in the news, it should not be boring or repetitious
(II) progress towards any goal should be easily apparent and obvious,
or else not enough effort is being expended.

(Those two rules have just occurred to me. I cannot tell yet whether I
am making some sort of statement, i.e., by being sarcastic or whatever.
But I will know soon.)

> The reason for going to Iraq WMD, lies hidden in Lebanon's Bekka
> valley; under the care of the Hezbollah. I suspect, though I have
> no proof that the Prez is avoiding additional conflicts (too early!)
> with Syria and Iran.

Well, I think that in order to invade anyone, the U.S. must (for both
internal and external reasons) make a tremendous case for it. It takes
about a decade or so to complete the process. The target country must
be unyielding about inspections, guilty of past crimes both domestic
and international (e.g. invading some adjacent country recently),
and so on. I just cannot see how Bush has any political option of
invading Lebanon or Iran.

> The American losses are because of lack of planning and lack of
> resolve to crush Iraqi resistance. We either needed to jump in
> with both feet,

I'm all for that! If you are going to act, half-measures are stupid.

> and secure the country *I don't buy into this liberation talk,
> spouted from DC (although in some cases this surely was true!)
> at all. We surely didn't liberate Japan; now we need to couch
> a military operation in politically correct labels? Sigh!

Okay, militarily, how would you have conducted the operation?

> The Prez needs to make some hard decisions because a plurality
> of the US voters, will not tolerate a long continuous skirmish,
> sans compelling reasons.

Yes, they never have. Historically, the American people are sick
and tired of any military effort after 18 months, unless there is
a continuous string of victories that indicate the kind of progress
I was talking about in Rule II.

This was true of the 1812 war, the War with Mexico, would have been
true of the Spanish American War, but it finished under the 18 month
deadline, true of the 1917-1918 war, the Korean War, the Vietnam War,
all of them. Eighteen months; or else a continuous string of victories.

Okay, now *I* would have expected that we had 18 months to conquer Iraq,
or else. Well, it took about 18 days. The point of my last post was
that the casualties were and are trivial. I guess that more Americans
die in traffic accidents in Iraq than in combat, and that's even if you
include policing fatalities as "combat". But I don't understand what
the 140+ deaths have mostly been about.

There have been a few countries in history that were so *solid* that they
could take unlimited casualties without falling to pieces. Rome and Russia
are the only ones that come to mind. Even the Japanese gave up after
Hiroshima (though that was probably only because the Emperor was such
a wimp). Every other country finds *some* certain casualty rate
unendurable.

Here is what I think America's ability to endure casualties has
been in its history (in men lost per day per billion people):

1776 5,000? Typical 18th century country, prior to nationalism.
1812 5,000? "These several United States" put up little fight, capital burned.
1846 5,000?
1865 10,000? The movie was not called "Birth of a Nation" for nothing.
1917 10,000? U.S. nationalism reaches peak.
1945 10,000?
1953 5,000? U.S. comes down with liberals, the dread disease afflicting older nations.
1969 1,000?
1990 100? Liberals has progressed to the point all actions extremely difficult/painful.
2000 10? U.S. no longer a nation, becomes "country".
2010 1?
2020 .1? U.S. ceases to be a country, becomes merely a hodgepodge of squabbling groups,
unified only by the IRS and swollen entitlements for the non-productive.

At this rate, I predict that no military action whatsoever will be
tolerated by 2020 if it involves the death of more than 400 soldiers
per year, no matter how vital to the country (e.g. invasion), or vital
to its self-image (e.g. freeing slaves). Such is the evolution of
American's sentimentality. I base the above roughly on

People Casualties Years Rate/Year Rate/Year/Million

1776: 2 million 5,000 7 700 350
1812: 7 million 2,000 3 700 100
1846: 18 million 2,000 2 1,000 55
1865: 20 million 360,000 4 90,000 4500
1898: 70 million 1,000 1 1,000 14
1917: 90 million 100,000 2 50,000 550
1945: 135 million 400,000 4 100,000 1300
1953: 155 million 50,000 3 15,000 100
1969: 200 million 57,000 7 8,000 40
1991: 250 million 100 1 100 0.4
2003: 290 million 300 1 300 1

Note: The population figures don't include blacks before 1950, nor southern
whites during the Civil war. I get the deaths---as confusing as some of the
categories are---from http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004615.html.

Lee

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From: Lee Corbin [lcorbin_tsoft.com]
Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 5:09 PM
To: Eudaemonists_Matus1976. Com
Subject: RE: [eudaemonists] Casualties

Mike writes

> --- Lee Corbin <lcorbin_tsoft.com> wrote:
> > Isn't it true that the U.S. loses about 1 man every two days
> > in Iraq due to combat?
> >
> > (By the way, what is the reason for the rather greater loss
> > due to non-combat events? I don't understand.)
>
> If you look at the number of US servicemen in Iraq and at actuarial
> tables, you'd find that US servicemen are experiencing FEWER accidental
> deaths in Iraq than they would experience in their normal lives at
> home.

This is astounding!

I have now changed my mind. Rumsfeld is now dead wrong in not
wanting to send more troops to Iraq. The lives of young American
boys are too valuable to waste by keeping them here, and so as
many should be sent as we can afford.

(I assume that the younger the soldier, the more prone to
vehicle death.)

> They are experiencing fewer deaths because, primarily, most all
> do not do much driving in POVs in their free time while in Iraq, nor
> are they driving to and from work in POVs. They also have less access
> to bars, other people's spouses/girlfriends/boyfriends/daughters, and
> fewer tourist opportunities.

Let me try my own math. About 20,000 Americans die each year in
traffic accidents, which is about 50 per day. Dividing by the
population in millions, that's 1/6 per day. American soldiers,
about a third of a million in Iraq, are dying at the rate of about
two per day. So dividing by 1/3, that's also one-sixth! It seems
to come out the same.

So I guess that the truth behind your statistic must stem from
the young and reckless indeed being more prone to traffic accidents
than the rest of us.

> It is rather disingenuous for the media to count accidental deaths in
> their body counts, given these statistical realities.

Ah, the art of understatement flourishes on this list too.

Lee

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From: Lee Corbin [lcorbin_tsoft.com]
Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 5:39 PM
To: Eudaemonists_Matus1976. Com
Subject: RE: [eudaemonists] Casualties (math error)

I wrote

> American soldiers, about a third of a million in Iraq, are dying
> at the rate of about two per day. So dividing by 1/3, that's
> also one-sixth! It seems to come out the same.

No, 2 divided by 1/3 is six. So now I get that being in Iraq is much
*more* hazardous than being in the U.S.

Here is an easy comparison. There are 300,000,000 in the U.S.,
and one thousandth as many in Iraq. Traffic fatalities in
the U.S. can be at *most* 50,000 per year, historically.
That is, at most 1000 per week.

It should be that there are one thousand times fewer in Iraq.
That would be only 1 per week. But it's on the order of ten
per week. I don't see how Mike's statistics could be right.

Lee

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From: Mike Lorrey [mlorrey_yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 7:09 PM
To: lcorbin_tsoft.com; Eudaemonists_Matus1976. Com
Subject: RE: [eudaemonists] Casualties (math error)

--- Lee Corbin <lcorbin_tsoft.com> wrote:
> I wrote
>
> > American soldiers, about a third of a million in Iraq, are dying
> > at the rate of about two per day. So dividing by 1/3, that's
> > also one-sixth! It seems to come out the same.
>
> No, 2 divided by 1/3 is six. So now I get that being in Iraq is much
> *more* hazardous than being in the U.S.
>
> Here is an easy comparison. There are 300,000,000 in the U.S.,
> and one thousandth as many in Iraq. Traffic fatalities in
> the U.S. can be at *most* 50,000 per year, historically.
> That is, at most 1000 per week.
>
> It should be that there are one thousand times fewer in Iraq.
> That would be only 1 per week. But it's on the order of ten
> per week. I don't see how Mike's statistics could be right.

Because you are not looking at it demographically. Most traffic deaths
occur to those 25 and under and those 65 and over. Your stats apply to
the general population, not these narrow demographics. Furthermore,
note the heavy prevalence of minorities in the military. Minorities
suffer 90% of weapon related homicides.

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From: Dehede011_aol.com
Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 10:39 PM
To: eudaemonists_matus1976.com
Subject: Re: [eudaemonists] Casualties

In a message dated 9/1/2003 3:53:48 PM Central Standard Time,
lcorbin_tsoft.com writes: Yes, they never have. Historically, the American people are sick
and tired of any military effort after 18 months, unless there is a continuous
string of victories that indicate the kind of progress I was talking about in
Rule II.

Actually I was reading the other day we were two years getting Germany
subdued after the WW2 surrender. They had a Nazis group called the Wolverines
assassinating GIs for those two years.
If you look at the resistance these few months after the major battles
were over they are said to be in a relatively small area. The rest of the
country is more or less subdued.
All in all I don't hear anyone criticizing the American effort now
that wasn't criticizing us all during the run up to the war, and all during the
war. Most of the criticism seems to be coming either from the campuses or the
DNC. Heck those are the same people that said we would lose Gulf War I and in
essence the same people that screwed up Vietnam. Remember how they opposed
the development of the Patriot Missile and said the A1M1 Abrahams tank couldn't
fight in the Iraqi desert because its air filters were designed wrong and
would choke on the sand.
I've spoke before of lurking on a Middle Eastern site. I still
remember during the run up to Afghanistan reading all the planned strategy and
tactics they intended to use to whip us. The plans were largely the same as they
used to whip the Russians. The trouble is that neither military weapons,
tactics nor organization had stood still during the intervening years.
I remember the pundits describing how Sadaam had these ingenious plans
for whipping us in Gulf War One. The truth is he had fought the Iranians the
same way and his ideas went back to the rough era of the First World War.
I remember being a young amateur boxer. Every time I was scheduled to
fight my opponent's friends came to tell me all the terrible things he would
do to poor little me -- they were looking out only for my best interests. I
liked listening to them -- sometimes they revealed some valuable clues.
We are losing so many men to assassins that the price of having an
American Soldier assassinated has reputedly gone from $1,000 per killing to
$5,000. The Iraqis are so put out with us that the attacks are confined to one
little triangle in their country. They are so sure of doing us in that the
surrounding countries have really toned down the language used in their newspapers.
I read their papers and I know they are being much more cautious in what
they say. Earlier their was literally nothing we could do that would not be
reported with a negative spin.
Guys I don't think our vocal critics have our welfare in mind.
Ron Harrison

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From: Lee Corbin [lcorbin_tsoft.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 9:45 PM
To: Eudaemonists_Matus1976. Com
Subject: RE: [eudaemonists] Casualties

Mike writes

> > It should be that there are one thousand times fewer in Iraq.
> > That would be only 1 per week. But it's on the order of ten
> > per week. I don't see how Mike's statistics could be right.
>
> Because you are not looking at it demographically. Most traffic deaths
> occur to those 25 and under and those 65 and over. Your stats apply to
> the general population, not these narrow demographics. Furthermore,
> note the heavy prevalence of minorities in the military. Minorities
> suffer 90% of weapon related homicides.

Have you seen anywhere---or has anyone---the Iraq deaths broken down
by type of incident or age? Thanks.

Lee

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From: Lee Corbin [lcorbin_tsoft.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 9:48 PM
To: eudaemonists_matus1976.com
Subject: RE: [eudaemonists] Post WWII: German Wolverine Assassinations

Ron writes

> [Lee writes]
> > Historically, the American people are sick
> > and tired of any military effort after 18
> > months, unless there is a continuous string
> > of victories that indicate the kind of
> > progress I was talking about in Rule II.
>
> Actually I was reading the other day we were two years getting Germany
> subdued after the WW2 surrender. They had a Nazis group called the Wolverines
> assassinating GIs for those two years.
> If you look at the resistance these few months after the major battles
> were over they are said to be in a relatively small area. The rest of the
> country is more or less subdued.

I tried to find anything at all about that on-line (google)
with no success. Has anyone seen a link to this?

Perhaps the pro-war sentiment in the U.S. was such that no
big deal was made about it at the time (quite the reverse,
perhaps).

Thanks for pointing this out.

Lee

> All in all I don't hear anyone criticizing the American effort now
> that wasn't criticizing us all during the run up to the war, and all during the
> war. Most of the criticism seems to be coming either from the campuses or the
> DNC. Heck those are the same people that said we would lose Gulf War I and in
> essence the same people that screwed up Vietnam. Remember how they opposed
> the development of the Patriot Missile and said the A1M1 Abrahams tank couldn't
> fight in the Iraqi desert because its air filters were designed wrong and
> would choke on the sand.
> I've spoke before of lurking on a Middle Eastern site. I still
> remember during the run up to Afghanistan reading all the planned strategy and
> tactics they intended to use to whip us. The plans were largely the same as they
> used to whip the Russians. The trouble is that neither military weapons,
> tactics nor organization had stood still during the intervening years.
> I remember the pundits describing how Sadaam had these ingenious plans
> for whipping us in Gulf War One. The truth is he had fought the Iranians the
> same way and his ideas went back to the rough era of the First World War.
> I remember being a young amateur boxer. Every time I was scheduled to
> fight my opponent's friends came to tell me all the terrible things he would
> do to poor little me -- they were looking out only for my best interests. I
> liked listening to them -- sometimes they revealed some valuable clues.
> We are losing so many men to assassins that the price of having an
> American Soldier assassinated has reputedly gone from $1,000 per killing to
> $5,000. The Iraqis are so put out with us that the attacks are confined to one
> little triangle in their country. They are so sure of doing us in that the
> surrounding countries have really toned down the language used in their newspapers.
> I read their papers and I know they are being much more cautious in what
> they say. Earlier their was literally nothing we could do that would not be
> reported with a negative spin.
> Guys I don't think our vocal critics have our welfare in mind.
> Ron Harrison

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From: matus [matus_matus1976.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 11:06 PM
To: eudaemonists_matus1976.com
Subject: [eudaemonists] Korean War at Intrepid Museum

Max Plumm and I caught the Intrepid musuem exhibit in New York City and
they had a fabulous exhibit on the Korean War. Acknowledging that it
was the start of the Cold War, which then continued on through the next
few decades, that early on we lost most of the territory of South Korea,
that it was the Soviet Union and the Chinese Communists who were
supplying North Korea, we often saw an appropriate use of quotes, with
some exhibits displaying 'North Korean "Volunteer" ' instead of what the
liberal revisionists usually present us with...'This was allegedly the
start of the "cold war"'

We got a photo of the 'Gulf of Tonkin Yacht Club' Emblem on the side of
the intrepid (you may remember one Jeff Davis insisting that it was a
'myth')

The inside of the Intrepid was mostly cleared out except some large
steam pipes and turned into a museum. Surprisingly they seemed to have
run out of things to put in it, as approximately 1/3rd of the interior
was empty. The Vietnam war exhibit was nothing more than the history
channels special on the vietnam war played on a projector,
dissapointing. The cold war exhibit, even worse, was two tanks and a
piece of the berlin wall, with one small plaque!

Some observations: The WWII prop fighters were HUGE, much much larger
than I had figured them to be. The fusulage alone was some 9'-10' in
diameter, and the main prop probably 14' or 15'. Conversely, the
intrepid was much smaller than I though Aircraft carriers to be
(although it was obviously a large vessle, the 'Peace Ship', a cruise
liner, dwarfed it) None of the weapons were active, so we were unable to
sink the Peace Ship despite our best efforts. I suppose I would need to
see a nuclear carrier to really get the scale of those vessels. All the
modern fighters were TINY, much smaller than I thought they were. They
seemed to be about 1/2 the size I thought they were for some reason, I
guess they just always look bigger on TV. Anothering interesting
obersvation was that the old straight deck intrepid of WWII had approx 4
times as many gun emplacements on it, and the future destroyer model
displayed seemed to have two or three weapons placed on it. Everything
is getting smaller and more powerfull. There was an SR-71 there, but
for some reason it was cordoned off and you could get close to it,
dammitt! The tanks were also much larger than I thought, standing next
to them the top of the treads was almost at my neck.

Images

http://www.matus1976.com/public/pictures/NYC_Trip_august03/

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From: Dehede011_aol.com
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 8:58 AM
To: eudaemonists_matus1976.com
Subject: Re: [eudaemonists] Casualties

In a message dated 9/3/2003 8:45:34 PM Central Standard Time,
lcorbin_tsoft.com writes: Have you seen anywhere---or has anyone---the Iraq deaths broken
down by type of incident or age? Thanks.

Lee,
Only that they are supposedly occuring in one small area and that the
costs of hiring the killers are going up sharply.
Ron Harrison

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From: Dehede011_aol.com
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 9:25 AM
To: eudaemonists_matus1976.com
Subject: Re: [eudaemonists] Korean War at Intrepid Museum

In a message dated 9/3/2003 10:05:14 PM Central Standard Time,
matus_matus1976.com writes: Acknowledging that it was the start of the Cold War, which then
continued on through the next few decades,

I assume it is all a matter of definition but in my mind the Cold War
started almost the morning after World War Two was over. Go into any major
library and pick up the microfilm of a major newspaper for a period containing
the surrender of Germany. You will find that to the end of the war everyone
was buddies. When American and Russian troops met at the Elbe they intermingled
and celebrated defeating Germany. Almost the next morning, if not the next
morning, if you approached the Russian lines you were met at the point of a
gun.
After that, there was a Civil War in Greece which was nothing but a
thinly disguised attempt by the Soviets to take over Greece. Later there was
the blockade of Berlin which was an attempt to take over the allied zones by
denying us access.
Churchill gave his "Iron Curtain" speech in 1947 in Missouri of all
places. In addition the countries of Eastern Europe were taken over one by one
all during the last half of the 1940s.
If we want I am sure we could point to the manuevering of Stalin, at
some of the conferences during the war, as his early positioning of the Soviet
to conduct the later cold war.
So I suppose there are many times and places in history that one could
point to as the beginning of the cold war. My personal choice of time and
place is Germany the morning after the German surender. However I am aware that
Stalin had begun pursuing his plans to conduct the Cold War much earlier.
Ron Harrison

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From: Dehede011_aol.com
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 9:33 AM
To: eudaemonists_matus1976.com
Subject: Re: [eudaemonists] Post WWII: German Wolverine Assassinations

In a message dated 9/3/2003 8:48:51 PM Central Standard Time,
lcorbin_tsoft.com writes: I tried to find anything at all about that on-line (google) with no
success. Has anyone seen a link to this? Perhaps the pro-war sentiment in
the U.S. was such that no big deal was made about it at the time (quite the
reverse, perhaps). Thanks for pointing this out.

Lee,
I want to be equally forthcoming and point out I have seen (heard
actually) a reference once. As it was spoken I can't take you back and document
the Woverines as a fact. For example was "Wolverine" our name or the German
name? If German, why wolverine as I am almost certain a wolverine is an
American animal?
I do recall there was remnants of the Nazis that continued resisting
and talk of plans they had for continuing to resist. But by a couple of months
after the end of the war I don't personally recall anything.
On the other hand I was ten years old and if possibly a bit unusual in
my keeping up with the news I was still ten with all the other interests of a
boy of ten.
Ron Harrison

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From: matus [matus_matus1976.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 10:31 AM
To: eudaemonists_matus1976.com
Subject: RE: [eudaemonists] Korean War at Intrepid Museum

>In a message dated 9/3/2003 10:05:14 PM Central Standard Time,
>matus_matus1976.com writes: Acknowledging that it was the
>start of the Cold War, which then
>continued on through the next few decades,
>
> I assume it is all a matter of definition but in my
>mind the Cold War
>started almost the morning after World War Two was over....
> After that, there was a Civil War in Greece which was
>nothing but a
>thinly disguised attempt by the Soviets to take over Greece.

No doubt, I suppose Korea might be considered the beginning of the
Obvious and official involvement in a proxy war against the communists.
I believe the US made efforts to assist Greece, did they not? I have
wanted to closely examine each cold war conflict starting at greece, but
have not yet had the time to unfortunately. It seems Stalin was
preparing for our becoming enemies even before WWII was over, as
evidenced by his insane drive into Berlin to look for the results of
research by Nazi scientists which may have had nuclear implications.

Michael

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From: matus [matus_matus1976.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 10:50 AM
To: eudaemonists_matus1976.com
Subject: [eudaemonists] Socialism kills

Interesting article - Michael

----------

Socialism kills
by Dennis Prager

"In a period of two weeks during August, more than 11,000 elderly French
men and women died of heat stroke. It is important to note that this is
not nearly the scandal in France that it would be in America. In fact,
upon hearing the news, French president Jacques Chirac decided to stay
on vacation in Quebec. Why has this happened?
In large measure because, in the words of British historian Paul
Johnson, the French, like most Europeans, and like most left-thinking
people anywhere, love ideas more than people." (09/02/03)

"Europe has given the world Marxism, Communism, Fascism, Nazism, racism,
and socialism, all rotten ideas that have caused immeasurable human
suffering. But for Europeans and their ideological twins on the American
left and at universities, ideas are not judged by their ability to
ameliorate huiman suffering or reduce evil, but by their complexity and
apparent profundity. An idea is not good because it produces good -
that's unromantic American pragmatism - it is good because it sounds
good."

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/dennisprager/dp20030902.shtml

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From: Dehede011_aol.com
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 1:09 PM
To: matus_matus1976.com
Subject: Re: [eudaemonists] Korean War at Intrepid Museum

In a message dated 9/4/2003 9:30:31 AM Central Standard Time,
matus_matus1976.com writes: No doubt, I suppose Korea might be considered the beginning of
the Obvious and official involvement in a proxy war against the communists

Michael,
Actually, I see the Cold War as a continuing conflict with roots back
into the Second World War. The unifying theme as I see it is as a series of
ongoing conflicts with the Soviets attacking so long as they were successful
but then switching tactics when the old ones failed them.
They attacked Eastern Europe with subversion and intimidation.
Finally they ran out of countries ripe for that technique or else we learned how to
handle that -- perhaps there was a combination of both.
Afterwards they tried to snatch the entirety of Berlin with their
blockade but that didn't work.
The next up was the Korean War which ended a stalemate. I believe
that also ended the massive military type attack.
After a while along came Cuba, a guerilla campaign that worked. They
tried to export the campaign to South America. That didn't work as a guerilla
does indeed go among the people as a fish goes in the water. If it isn't his
people then the fish gets hooked as did Che.
Vietnam was a guerilla war until the Tet Offensive. By that time they
had discovered asymmetrical warfare. They switched to using the North
Vietnamese Army and according to David Horowitz the use of subversives in this
country. That tactic worked.
There was an intensive Soviet sponsored war going on in Africa but I
am not really up on that one. The strategy seems to be to cut major ocean
shipping lanes in the long run.
We had Grenada and then Nicaragua. Grenada was on the shipping lanes
for oil from the middle east and Nicaragua was in position to block convenient
access to South America as Cuba blocks shipping access from Gulf ports to
North Europe and perhaps elsewhere.
Finally the Soviet collapsed from the strain of their military
ambitions. Some, reputedly the Russian Intelligence Community, say the trouble spots
of today's wars are ex-clients of the Soviet.
Ron Harrison
From: Lee Corbin [lcorbin_tsoft.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 6:33 PM
To: Eudaemonists_Matus1976. Com
Subject: RE: [eudaemonists] Korean War at Intrepid Museum

Michael writes

> [Ron writes]
>
> > I assume it is all a matter of definition but in my
> >mind the Cold War
> >started almost the morning after World War Two was over....
> > After that, there was a Civil War in Greece which was
> >nothing but a
> >thinly disguised attempt by the Soviets to take over Greece.
>
> No doubt, I suppose Korea might be considered the beginning of the
> Obvious and official involvement in a proxy war against the communists.
> I believe the US made efforts to assist Greece, did they not? I have
> wanted to closely examine each cold war conflict starting at Greece, but
> have not yet had the time to unfortunately. It seems Stalin was
> preparing for our becoming enemies even before WWII was over, as
> evidenced by his insane drive into Berlin to look for the results of
> research by Nazi scientists which may have had nuclear implications.

Well, yes, but I don't fault Stalin especially for any of that.
The slightest perusal of history, IMO, shows that tensions and
conflicts between reigning victors or superpowers is inevitable.

I once heard that in the 1920's, when relations between the U.S. and
Britain were quite bad, the British prepared an internal report during
the 1920s as to what the prospects would be if it came to war. They
were dismayed when the report pointed out that the U.S. had twice
the population, three times the natural resources, and five times
the industrial capacity they could ever hope to muster.

The more things change, the more things remain the same.

So if I had been Stalin, I too would have been preparing for a
cold war (at least) after the Nazi defeat. Even if my adversaries
were morons like Roosevelt and Truman, it is unlikely that such
will stay in power forever. But even if they did, it simply would
not be prudent to fail to prepare.

Where I fault him was the aggression all over the world he fostered.
There is no way that the leaders of South Korea would ever have
been given the green light by the U.S. to start a shooting war
against the North, for example. Meanwhile, Soviet spies were...
hmm...well, I guess I can't fault him them for that either. :-)

If Stalin
and his inheritors had simply *not* tried to foment pro-Soviet violent
revolutions everywhere, and if they had disbanded the Red Army (still
retaining an advantage in time and space), like the U.S. disbanded
its army, the "Cold War" would have played out on a far, far lower key.

There is no doubt who started the Cold War. Churchill could see that.
He was not in Novosibirsk making a speech against the U.S.

Lee

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From: MaxPlumm_aol.com
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 10:58 PM
To: matus_matus1976.com; eudaemonists_matus1976.com
Subject: Re: [eudaemonists] Korean War at Intrepid Museum

Ron said:

> I assume it is all a matter of definition but in my
>mind the Cold War
>started almost the morning after World War Two was over....
> After that, there was a Civil War in Greece which was
>nothing but a
>thinly disguised attempt by the Soviets to take over Greece.

To which Michael responded:

"No doubt, I suppose Korea might be considered the beginning of the
Obvious and official involvement in a proxy war against the communists.
I believe the US made efforts to assist Greece, did they not?"

Indeed, all told the United States government supplied the Papandreou-Papagos regimes with between 400 and 500 million dollars between 1946 and 1949, not to mention a few of the ever popular "technical advisors."

A factor that may have been equally important is that at war's end Greece was occupied by British troops instead of Soviet ones. In the civil war's earliest and most precarious stages, British troops fought along side the Royalists in attempting to subdue the Communists. In December 1944, two months after the Germans had been defeated and withdrawn from Greece, Churchill cabled General Scobie, the British Commander in Greece, and said, "We have to hold and dominate Athens. It would be a great thing for you to succeed without bloodshed if possible, but also with bloodshed if necessary." To suggest that the Cold War began even before World War II ended is indeed a bit of an understatement.

British historian Paul Johnson suggests in his "Modern Times" that:

"The Cold War may be said to date from the immediate aftermath of the Yalta Conference, to be precise from March 1945. Of course in a sense Soviet Russia had waged the Cold War since October 1917: it was inherent in the historical determinism of Leninism. The pragmatic alliance from June 1941 onwards was a mere interruption. It was inevitable that Stalin would resume his hostile predation sooner or later."

Still more interested in seeing Mengistu Haile Mariam get what he deserves than with what Damien or Amara would say to God,

Will

From: MaxPlumm_aol.com
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 10:58 PM
To: matus_matus1976.com; eudaemonists_matus1976.com
Subject: Re: [eudaemonists] Korean War at Intrepid Museum

Ron said:

To which Michael responded:

British historian Paul Johnson suggests in his "Modern Times" that:

Still more interested in seeing Mengistu Haile Mariam get what he deserves than with what Damien or Amara would say to God,

Will

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From: MaxPlumm_aol.com
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 11:12 PM
To: eudaemonists_matus1976.com
Subject: [eudaemonists] Bush=Hitler

All-

A very good article by the National Review's Johan Goldberg which addresses the Left's (and one Libertarian of mine and Michael's acquaintance) grotesque habit of comparing President Bush and members of his administration to Hitler and his odious regime. It is true, as Lee has pointed out in the past, that we all have our own various "ideological blinders". However, I for one appreciate and feel it should be recognized that those on the right do not compare the likes of Bill Clinton, Ted Kennedy, and Jimmy Carter to Joseph Stalin or Mao Zedong anytime a tax increase is considered by a liberal administration or Congress.

Will

http://nationalreview.com/goldberg/goldberg090403.asp

Will

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From: Dehede011_aol.com
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 11:19 PM
To: eudaemonists_matus1976.com
Subject: Re: [eudaemonists] Bush=Hitler

In a message dated 9/4/2003 10:11:55 PM Central Standard Time,
MaxPlumm_aol.com writes: A very good article by the National Review's Johan Goldberg which
addresses the Left's (and one Libertarian of mine and Michael's acquaintance)
grotesque habit of comparing President Bush and members of his administration
to Hitler and his odious regime.

Max,
I seem to be on your side. Anyone that reads up on Hitler will find
that he was a committed Socialist that had but one testicle. What are they
comparing him to Bush or any American for?
Ron Harrison

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From: Lee Corbin [lcorbin_tsoft.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 11:40 PM
To: eudaemonists_matus1976.com
Subject: RE: [eudaemonists] Socialism kills

Michael writes

> Interesting article - Michael
> ----------
> Socialism kills by Dennis Prager
>
> "In a period of two weeks during August, more than 11,000 elderly French
> men and women died of heat stroke.

So, I am guessing: socialized medicine? I will read that
when I am a little less restless than right now.

> "Europe has given the world Marxism, Communism, Fascism, Nazism, racism,
> and socialism, all rotten ideas that...

You cannot blame "racism" on Europe. It's somewhat natural, the way
that I read the term. One is naturally suspicious of those not in
one's family. Even more suspicious of those not in one's village.
And incredibly suspicious of those that (a) don't appear to resemble
you at all (b) themselves look at you as though you were "one of them"
instead of "one of us".

To the degree that racism or stereotyping is avoidable, it
is only *truly* damaging when even after one gets to know
someone not of one's own background, prejudice *still* prevents
one from recognizing him or her as an individual.

Today in wonderfully race-conscious and class-conscious America,
most people I encounter when I walk down the street take one look
at ol' middle-class, white, intellectual looking, conservatively
dressed Lee and say, "there goes one of them".

I thought that I was growing up in a nation where most people who
saw me would say "there goes one of us". :-(

Lee

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From: Lee Corbin [lcorbin_tsoft.com]
Sent: Friday, September 05, 2003 12:20 AM
To: Eudaemonists_Matus1976. Com
Subject: RE: [eudaemonists] Socialism kills

The article

> Socialism kills by Dennis Prager

goes on to say:

"Third, socialism teaches you to avoid taking care of other people. The state will - why should you? If people in France and
elsewhere in Europe take less care of their aging parents, it is because they are taught from childhood to allow others, i.e. the
state, to take care of everybody. Just as we saw in America when the state stepped in to take care of women who had children without
a husband, these..."

Ah, that's explains it! Very good point. I know that I myself
feel vastly less generous towards charity because my thoughts
immediately revert to all the tax money that's been forcibly
extracted from me in the name of charity, or "entitlements" as
they are today less frequently called. So I admire all those
people in the conservative states who seem unaffected by this meme...

The author proves his case with a number of examples. I would
not have seen this. It always made too much sense to me that
naturally socialism would encourage nurturing thinking.

Lee

> -----Original Message-----
> From: matus [mailto:matus_matus1976.com]
> Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 7:50 AM
> To: eudaemonists_matus1976.com
> Subject: [eudaemonists] Socialism kills
>
> Interesting article - Michael
> ----------
> Socialism kills
> by Dennis Prager
>
> "In a period of two weeks during August, more than 11,000 elderly French
> men and women died of heat stroke. It is important to note that this is
> not nearly the scandal in France that it would be in America. In fact,
> upon hearing the news, French president Jacques Chirac decided to stay
> on vacation in Quebec. Why has this happened?
> In large measure because, in the words of British historian Paul
> Johnson, the French, like most Europeans, and like most left-thinking
> people anywhere, love ideas more than people." (09/02/03)
>
> "Europe has given the world Marxism, Communism, Fascism, Nazism, racism,
> and socialism, all rotten ideas that have caused immeasurable human
> suffering. But for Europeans and their ideological twins on the American
> left and at universities, ideas are not judged by their ability to
> ameliorate huiman suffering or reduce evil, but by their complexity and
> apparent profundity. An idea is not good because it produces good -
> that's unromantic American pragmatism - it is good because it sounds
> good."
>
> http://www.townhall.com/columnists/dennisprager/dp20030902.shtml

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From: Lee Corbin [lcorbin_tsoft.com]
Sent: Friday, September 05, 2003 1:12 AM
To: Eudaemonists_Matus1976. Com
Subject: Re: [eudaemonists] Korean War at Intrepid Museum

(I can't believe that I didn't send this to the list!)

Max Plumm writes

> British historian Paul Johnson suggests in his "Modern Times" that:
>
> "The Cold War may be said to date from the immediate aftermath of
> the Yalta Conference, to be precise from March 1945. Of course in
> a sense Soviet Russia had waged the Cold War since October 1917:
> it was inherent in the historical determinism of Leninism. The
> pragmatic alliance from June 1941 onwards was a mere interruption.
> It was inevitable that Stalin would resume his hostile predation
> sooner or later."

Yes, exactly.

> Still more interested in seeing Mengistu Haile Mariam get what he
> deserves...

Who's that, and what would you like to happen to him?

Lee

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From: Lee Corbin [lcorbin_tsoft.com]
Sent: Friday, September 05, 2003 1:12 AM
To: Eudaemonists_Matus1976. Com
Subject: Re: [eudaemonists] Bush=Hitler

Ditto. Sorry for the extra email, Ron.

Ron writes

> MaxPlumm_aol.com writes:
> > A very good article by the National Review's Johan Goldberg which
> > addresses the Left's (and one Libertarian of mine and Michael's acquaintance)
> > grotesque habit of comparing President Bush and members of his administration
> > to Hitler and his odious regime.
>
> Max,
> I seem to be on your side.

How surprising.

> Anyone that reads up on Hitler will find that he was a committed
> Socialist that had but one testicle. What are they comparing him
> to Bush or any American for?

They see a parallel between "Bush's" invasion of Iraq and Hitler's
invasion of Poland. They adhere totally to the principle of
national sovereignty (overlooking certain unimportant issues like
national survival, terrorist reduction, power politics, non-
proliferation, ridding the world of a supremely evil murderer, etc.)

They also see him as having mesmerized a huge part of the American
people to do harmful and callous things, things entirely foreign
to the generous and benevolent nature of people who have not been
brainwashed by right-wing propaganda. (I guess that it is by dint
of his incredibly powerful and sweeping oratory that Bush, like
Hitler, achieved this.)

The truth also is that you cannot hold Bush entirely accountable
for invading Iraq, any more than you could hold Hitler entirely
accountable for invading Poland, (although you *could* make a
much better case for the latter than the former). In reality,
of course, modern leaders can seldom act without huge compliance
of their whole nation, or at least a huge party, (e.g., the Nazis
or the Republicans), and probably not without favorable sentiment
from a real majority of the people---oh, oh. I think that Blair
and his party *did* invade Iraq without majority support of the
people---I don't really know.

(We are far from the days when Tamerlane, sick and bed-ridden,
suddenly ordered his entire army/people to go attack China,
2000 miles away. Even though he was the *only* one who wanted
to make the horrid march across frozen Siberia in the middle
of winter, no one in his tent wanted to be the first to demur.
That is, no one wanted to be first to be tortured and killed.
So all 300,000 or so sullen, dejected, reluctant people began
the trek. Fortunately for them, Tamerlane died a week or so
later.)

Anyway, that's how they would attempt the comparison, faulty
as it is, of course.

Lee

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From: matus [matus_matus1976.com]
Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2003 10:01 AM
To: eudaemonists_matus1976.com
Subject: [eudaemonists] RE: Taiwan (was: RE: SPACE: Loss of the Saturn V)

A post to the extropy list. I am sure Will may have something to say on
the rediculous comments of Tawain.

Michael

>>> one controls all that land and all
>>> those people, but is all screwed up. The other is
>>> free and prosperous. It's a lesson a six year old
>>> child couldn't miss.
>
>>Only if he had no access to g**gle. Otherwise the little enquirer
>>would find out that Taiwan was under martial law for the first 80% of
>>its independent history and that its first general elections were in
>>1996, by which time it was already prosperous relative to its
>mainland
>>neighbour. You could always censor those pages, to reinforce the
>>democratic message.
>
>Yes, another beautiful theory slain by an ugly fact.
>

Lets not forget the separation of political and economic systems.
Democracy is the political structure, communism refers to both a
political one *and* an economic one, democracy has no implications of
economic structure. You can have free market democracies or heavily
socialized ones. Tawain may have been under martial law, but it was
also a market based economy with a rule of law not present in China, and
history clearly shows that whether democratic or totalitarian, market
based economies clearly produce higher standards of living for the
people that live under them, providing adequate rule of law.

Article on the subject -
www.worldbank.org/research/growth/pdfiles/dollarkraay2.pdf

Subject: David Dollar and Aart Kraay - Property Rights, Political
Rights, and the development of Poor countries

David Dollar and Aart Kraay - Property Rights, Political Rights, and the
development of Poor countries
This is An interesting paper relating economic growth and world policy.
Specifically relating to finding out what behavior objectively leads to
a better standard of living for the worlds population and the world's
poor.

The Author first designates two main criteria to the paper, defining
government structures in 'voice' and 'rule of law' Voice refers to the
say the populace has in the government, and the 'rule of law' refers to
the general trust and abidence in law of the people of the nation.
Similiar to two catagories I have often used as democratic vs non
democratic and despotic vs non despotic. The Author points out that all
developed nations rank high in both 'rule of law' and 'voice',yet poor
countries (especially the sixty poorest) rank very low in both
catagories (The ranking is based on a series of quantifiable and
qualifiable variables and averaged out, defined in the paper) Notably,
the author points out that the rule of law has a very powerful effect on
the income of the poor, that is, the more the populace and the
governance respects the laws the better off the people are, especially
the poorest. The author notes that (not surprisingly to me) that
democracy does not have as strong of a correlation to helping the poor
as the non-despotic vs. despotic 'rule of law' catagorization does.
Nations can not prosper if laws are not in place or enforced. The good
voice poor law countries do not fare well, while the good law poor voice
did fare much better for the poor. Of course the good law good voice was
at the top, (on average) while poor voice poor law was at the bottom.
Unfortunately, as the author notes, the good voice poor law gets about
twice as much aid as the good law poor voice countries, something that
is not as conducive to ending poverty as the reverse situation. The
author suggests that more aide should be given to countries that have
reasonably good economic practices and respect of law.

Furthermore, the author notes that countries with relatively good rule
of law, even in the absence of good voice (such as China, Uganda, Ghana,
and Vietnam) which are well known market oriented reformers in the past
15 years, are seeing income rise rapidly and education and literacy
expanding . The Author notes that these trends may lead to greater
political liberalization (good voice) much like Chile, Taiwan, or South
Korea.

The author qualitatively defines 'Rule of Law' as the measure of the
extent to which people have confidence in and abide by the rules of
society. He quantitatively defines it with a series of measurable
variables in the paper. This concept definately is an excellent
description of what exactly is lacking in post communist russia and the
reason for its current conditions.

Interestingly, the Author notes that as we move from the poles to the
tropics, both good voice and rule of law decline. An enrvironmental /
social reason for this is releayed in Jared Diamonds "Guns, Germs and
Steel" A quick summary for the pattern is given in this paper.

The author argues that when we ask what countries have good governments
when handing out foriegn aide, the most important factor is whether the
country and its people support a rule of law, and second to that is a
good political voice.

The author also notes that there is a tight link between income of the
poor and per capita income and there is a relationship between the
growth rate of income of the poor and median income. Obvious for persons
familiar with averages (mean, mode, median) He also states that the
evidence is clear that openness to foriegn trade and investment will
accelerate growth and poverty reduction.

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From: matus [matus_matus1976.com]
Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2003 10:06 AM
To: eudaemonists_matus1976.com
Subject: [eudaemonists] RE: SPACE: Loss of the Saturn V

Robert Bradbury said:
>I'm just blown away that the U.S. let one of its most
>phenomenal technological achivements slip from its grasp. The
>younger folks on the list will not get this -- but those of us
>in our 40's watched those launches and watched the Apollo
>lunar landings on TV too.
>

Robert Zubrin had some things to say on this subject in his book
"Entering Space" Skylab had more liveable area than the ISS does and
was made from the third stage of the Saturn V, it was originally the
fuel tanks for the moon mission.

Michael

- Excerpts from Entering space - (Be sure to check the last paragraph)

Political impacts on the US space program
"The attempt to cope with these economic realities underlies much of the
pathology associated with the Shuttle program for the past twenty years.
For example, in selling the Shuttle program to Congress during the
1970's, NASA officials claimed that the Shuttle would fly forty times
per year (one launch every nine days!). This prediction should have
aroused skepticism on two grounds: (a) the technical difficult in
preparing a Shuttle for launch in so short a time and (b) the lack of a
payload manifest large enough to such a launch rate. NASA leaders left
(a) up to the engineers to solve as best they could, but attempted to
solve (b) themselves through political action. Specifically, the NASA
brass in the late 1970's abd tge early 1980's obtained agreements from
the White House to the effect that once the Shuttle became fully
operational, all U.S. government payloads would be launched on the
Shuttle. That is, NASA wanted to the expendable Deltas, Atlases, and
Titans phased out of existence so that the Shuttle could enjoy a bigger
manifest and have its economics improve accordingly. The Air Force
resisted this policy, as they feared that a Shuttle accident could cause
a stand-down of the entire program, which would them make it impossible
to launch vital military reconnaissance and communication satellites
when required. It seems incredible today, but the NASA argument actually
carried the day against the Air Force in Washington's corridors of
power. During the 1980's, the expendable "mixed fleet" was in the
process of being phased out. It was only after the Challenger disaster
in January 1986 proved the Air Force concerns were fully justified that
President Reagan reversed the decision."

Robert Zubrin - Entering Space - page 27-28

---------

Politics and the International Space Station (idealogical driven
scientific goals)
"The need to increase the launch manifest to justify Shuttle economics
played a central role in the decision to initiate the Space Station
program. In the early 1980s, NASA Deputy Administrator Hans Mark saw
clearly that achieving a shuttle launch rate of twenty-five per year
would be impossible without the manifest created by the construction and
supply needs of a permanently orbiting outpost, which he already
supported as a facility for in space scientific research (mark did not
believe the forty launches per year touted by earlier shuttle advocates
was feasible under any conditions). Based on this (probably accurate
assessment), Mark convinced first NASA Administrator James Beggs and
then the Reagan White House of the need for a space station program. The
need to generate a large shuttle manifest also helps to explain the
bizarre nature of the engineering designs that have guided the space
station program since its inceptions.

The right way to build a Space Station is to build a heavy-lift launch
vehicle and use it to launch the station in a single piece. The United
States launched the Skylab space station in this manner in 1973. Skylab,
which contained more living space than the currently planned
International Space Station (ISS), was built in one piece and launched
in a single day. AS a result, the entire Skylab program, end to end from
1968 to 1974, including development, build, launch, and operation was
conducted at a cost in today's money of about $4 Billion, roughly
one-eighth of the anticipated cost of the ISS. In contrast, the Space
Station has gone through numerous designs (of which the current ISS is
the latest), all of which called for over thirty Shuttle Launches, each
delivering an element that would be added into an extended ticky-tacky
structure on orbit. Since no one really knows how to do this, such an
approach has caused the program development cost and schedule to
explode. In 1993, the recently appointed NASA Administrator Dan Goldin
attempted to deal with this situation be ordering a total reassessment
of the Space Station's design. Three teams, labeled A, B, and C, were
assigned to develop complete designs for three distinct Space Station
concepts. Teams A and B took two somewhat different approaches to the by
then standard thirty-Shuttle-launch/orbit assembly concept, whereas team
C developed a Skylab-type design that would be launched in a single
throw of a heave lift vehicle (a "Shuttle C" consisting of the Shuttle
launch stack but without the reusable orbiter). The three approaches
were then submitted to a blue ribbon panel organized by the
Massachusetts Institute of Technology for competitive judgment. The
M.I.T. panel ruled decisively in favor of option C (a fact that
demonstrated only their common sense, not their brilliance, as C was
much cheaper, simpler, safer, more reliable, and more capable and would
have given the nation a heavy-lift launcher as a bonus). However, based
on the need to create Shuttle Launches as well as a desire to have the
Space Station design that would allow modular additions by international
partners, Vice President Al Gore and House Space Subcommittee chairman
George Brown overruled the M.I.T. panel. By political fiat, these
gentlemen forced NASA to accept option A, and thee space agency has had
to struggle with the task of building the Space Station on that basis
ever since. The result has been a further set of cost and schedule
overruns, the blame for which has been consistently placed on various
NASA middle managers instead of those really responsible."
Robert Zubrin - Entering Space - page 28-29

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From: Lee Corbin [lcorbin_tsoft.com]
Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2003 1:06 PM
To: Eudaemonists_Matus1976. Com
Subject: RE: [eudaemonists] RE: Taiwan (was: RE: SPACE: Loss of the Saturn V)

Michael writes

> Article on the subject -
> www.worldbank.org/research/growth/pdfiles/dollarkraay2.pdf

> Subject: David Dollar and Aart Kraay - Property Rights, Political
> Rights, and the development of Poor countries

That link does not work for me.

Lee

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From: matus [matus_matus1976.com]
Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2003 5:34 PM
To: 'Eudaemonists_Matus1976. Com'
Subject: RE: [eudaemonists] RE: Taiwan (was: RE: SPACE: Loss of the Saturn V)

Hmm, they seemed to have moved / deleted the article. I will have to
hunt for it, it's a good one...

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Lee Corbin [mailto:lcorbin_tsoft.com]
>Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2003 1:06 PM
>To: Eudaemonists_Matus1976. Com
>Subject: RE: [eudaemonists] RE: Taiwan (was: RE: SPACE: Loss
>of the Saturn V)
>
>
>Michael writes
>
>> Article on the subject -
>> www.worldbank.org/research/growth/pdfiles/dollarkraay2.pdf
>
>> Subject: David Dollar and Aart Kraay - Property Rights, Political
>> Rights, and the development of Poor countries
>
>That link does not work for me.
>
>Lee
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>

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From: MaxPlumm_aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 10:38 PM
To: eudaemonists_matus1976.com
Subject: [eudaemonists] Iraq is still not Vietnam..and neither is Vietnam for that matter

All-

Enjoyable article on the National Review site today by John O'Sullivan. Mr. O'Sullivan gives his two cents as to why the "Iraq is becoming another Vietnam" argument is without merit. While being no longer as long or detailed as a windbag such as myself would have made this article, definitely a good read.

http://nationalreview.com/jos/jos090903.asp

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From: MaxPlumm_aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 10:59 PM
To: lcorbin_tsoft.com; eudaemonists_matus1976.com
Subject: Re: [eudaemonists] Korean War at Intrepid Museum

Lee asked a few days ago:

> > Still more interested in seeing Mengistu Haile Mariam get
> what he
> > deserves...

"Who's that, and what would you like to happen to him?"

Mengistu Haile Mariam was the Communist dictator of Ethiopia from 1974-91. Like every other Soviet proxy one can think of, his regime was marked by mass murder and oppression. The always useful Black Book of Communism puts the death toll during Mengistu's "Red Terror" at roughly 250,000. Indeed, various diplomats during the late 1970s recounted tales of seeing bodies piled up on the roadside as they left Addis Ababa, the Ethiopian capital.

Mengistu's grip on power loosened in the late 1980s, as the money and gunships from Moscow were no longer being supplied in sufficient quantities. Facing certain defeat at the hands of a widespread rebellion, he fled to Zimbabwe where he remains to this day, under the auspices of his long time friend Robert Mugabe. Indeed, the national holiday of Ethiopia is May 28th, the day the Communist regime was overthrown.

As for what I would like to have happen to Mengistu, ideally he would've seen a Nicolae Ceaucescu type ending, but that obviously was not to be. More likely, like most of the major tyrants of the 20th Century, absolutely nothing will ever happen to him, and he will live out his days believing his cause was just and right.

But with real tyrants like George W. Bush running around, who has time for mass murderers?.....:)

Max "If being anti-communist is wrong, then I don't wanna be right" Plumm

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From: MaxPlumm_aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 10:59 PM
To: lcorbin_tsoft.com; eudaemonists_matus1976.com
Subject: Re: [eudaemonists] Korean War at Intrepid Museum

Lee asked a few days ago:

> > Still more interested in seeing Mengistu Haile Mariam get
> what he
> > deserves...

"Who's that, and what would you like to happen to him?"

But with real tyrants like George W. Bush running around, who has time for mass murderers?.....:)

Max "If being anti-communist is wrong, then I don't wanna be right" Plumm

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From: matus [matus_matus1976.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 11:08 PM
To: eudaemonists_matus1976.com
Subject: RE: [eudaemonists] Iraq is still not Vietnam..and neither is Vietnam for that matter

Of note

"Nor does the story end with the safety of Singapore. In the late 1980s,
when the Soviet politburo was debating perestroika, Mikhail Gorbachev
cited its success - tiny Singapore, exported more in value than the vast
Soviet Union - as demonstrating the need to dismantle the socialist
command economy"

Imagine that, one CITY creating more wealth than the entire Soviet
Union.

Yesterday, the Day after Bush's speech, I listened to a call in hour on
NPR, where the first caller insisted that Iraq was another Vietnam, and
we new Vietnam was a mistake but didn't leave early enough, and we
didn't want to turn Iraq into one. I tried to call in, wanting to point
out what happened to the people of Indochina after we abandoned them.
Ah, but who cares about them, they arent americans! As some brilliant
commentator from the extropian list opined "Screw Vietnam!"

Michael Dickey

>-----Original Message-----
>From: MaxPlumm_aol.com [mailto:MaxPlumm_aol.com]
>Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 10:38 PM
>To: eudaemonists_matus1976.com
>Subject: [eudaemonists] Iraq is still not Vietnam..and neither
>is Vietnam for that matter
>
>
>All-
>
>Enjoyable article on the National Review site today by John
>O'Sullivan. Mr. O'Sullivan gives his two cents as to why the
>"Iraq is becoming another Vietnam" argument is without merit.
>While being no longer as long or detailed as a windbag such as
>myself would have made this article, definitely a good read.
>
>
>http://nationalreview.com/jos/jos090903.asp
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>For additional commands, e-mail: eudaemonists-help_matus1976.com
>
>

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From: matus [matus_matus1976.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 11:11 PM
To: eudaemonists_matus1976.com
Subject: RE: [eudaemonists] Korean War at Intrepid Museum

>-----Original Message-----
>From: MaxPlumm_aol.com [mailto:MaxPlumm_aol.com]
he fled to Zimbabwe where he
>remains to this day, under the auspices of his long time
>friend Robert Mugabe.

No doubt Mugabe handed over one of the nationalized farms expropriated
from the whites of Zimbabwe to Mengistu.

Michael Dickey

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From: matus [matus_matus1976.com]
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 4:04 AM
To: eudaemonists_matus1976.com
Subject: [eudaemonists] Edward Teller, 1908-2003

A sad day, the grumpy, nuclear bomb loving, social commentor, hated by
liberals, favorite physicist of mine Edward Teller now ceases to
exist....

24) Edward Teller, 1908-2003
SiliconValley.Com

"Edward Teller, the 'father of the hydrogen bomb,' a Hungarian-born
physicist who tirelessly promoted the development of nuclear weapons
for half a century, died Tuesday at his home on the campus of
Stanford University. He was 95 and had been in declining health. He
had suffered a stroke a few days earlier. ... Born in Budapest in
1908, Teller studied under both Neils Bohr and Werner Heisenberg,
among the pre-eminent scientists of their time, and went on to become
a leading player among the pantheon of physicists who unraveled the
inner secrets of the atom in the halcyon years of nuclear discovery
in the 1930s and 1940s." (09/10/03)

http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/siliconvalley/6737920.htm

Physicist Edward Teller dies at 95
DRIVING FORCE BEHIND H-BOMB SUCCUMBS AT STANFORD
By Dan Stober
Mercury News

Edward Teller, the ``father of the hydrogen bomb,'' a Hungarian-born
physicist who tirelessly promoted the development of nuclear weapons for
half a century, died Tuesday at his home on the campus of Stanford
University. He was 95 and had been in declining health. He had suffered
a stroke a few days earlier.

He was the driving force behind the establishment of the Bay Area's
nuclear weapons design lab, Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory.

Born in Budapest in 1908, Teller studied under both Neils Bohr and
Werner Heisenberg, among the pre-eminent scientists of their time, and
went on to become a leading player among the pantheon of physicists who
unraveled the inner secrets of the atom in the halcyon years of nuclear
discovery in the 1930s and 1940s.

In 1928, while at the University of Munich, he slipped beneath the
wheels of a streetcar and lost his left foot. The heavy staff he used to
aid his walking in later years became as much a part of his formidable
presence as his famous bushy eyebrows and thick, commanding Hungarian
accent.

He sailed to the United States in 1935 with his wife, Mici, part of a
flood of Jewish scientists fleeing Nazism. His first important political
act was behind the wheel of his Plymouth in 1939, when he drove Leo
Szilard to Albert Einstein's house to persuade the scientist to compose
his famous letter to Franklin Roosevelt about the possibility of an atom
bomb.

From there Teller never looked back, dedicating his career to nuclear
weapons. From his position at Lawrence Livermore and later Stanford's
Hoover Institution, he advised U.S. presidents during several decades,
arguing against nuclear test bans and in favor of developing new types
of weapons.

He was fascinated by all things nuclear and was known in the weapons
world as a fountain of imaginative ideas, the details of which he left
to others. He promoted the idea of using hydrogen bombs to dig a harbor
in Alaska, to deflect killer asteroids approaching Earth and mused about
whether they could be used to change the direction of hurricanes.

Teller championed nuclear power plants and nuclear space ships. In the
1980s, his campaigning for a hydrogen bomb that could theoretically emit
enough X-ray laser beams to knock down a fleet of Russian missiles
helped propel the creation of the Reagan-era ``Star Wars'' program.

As a Los Alamos scientist in World War II, Teller was present at the
creation of the atomic bomb, donning dark welding glasses, suntan lotion
and heavy gloves to protect against the light and heat as a test of the
world's first atom bomb lighted the dark New Mexico sky.

Late in his life, he told the Mercury News he had no regrets. ``Can you
tell me why I should have regrets?'' he said.

He was beloved by many conservatives and had a following in Washington,
but he also was vilified by liberals and lampooned as ``Dr.
Strangelove,'' the bomb-loving scientist in Stanley Kubrik's spoof about
nuclear weapons and the Cold War.

His life was forever altered by events in 1954 that revolved, as always,
around nuclear weapons. After the atomic bombing that ended the war
against Japan in 1945, Teller had pushed hard for the development of the
more powerful hydrogen bomb, contributing crucial design concepts. But
he was so frustrated by what he saw as foot-dragging by Los Alamos
Director J. Robert Oppenheimer that he successfully lobbied for the
founding of a second bomb lab in Livermore in 1952, constructed as an
offshoot of the University of California's Radiation Laboratory.

In April 1954, Teller testified against Oppenheimer, advising the Atomic
Energy Commission that the respected scientist could not be trusted with
a security clearance. His testimony was greeted with outrage by many of
his former Los Alamos colleagues, some of whom shunned him for life.

He was stung by the criticism and found solace in teaching at the
University of California-Berkeley and sharing his ideas with younger
scientists at his lab in Livermore. Their crowning achievement, aided by
Teller's technical insights and political ability, was the shrinking of
the H-bomb. During the 1950s, the Livermore scientist created a hydrogen
bomb small enough to fit on a missile carried inside a Polaris
submarine, forever changing the calculus of nuclear deterrence.

As he aged, Teller was showered with honors and he traveled to his
native Hungary, where he was treated as a celebrity.

Less than two months ago, he was awarded the Presidential Medal of
Freedom, the nation's highest civilian honor, during a special ceremony
presided over by President Bush. Teller was too frail to attend but said
he was touched by the honor.

``In my long life, I had to face some difficult decisions and found
myself often in doubt whether I acted the right way,'' he said. ``Thus
the medal is a great blessing for me.''

On Tuesday, Teller, an advocate of science education, had been scheduled
to appear at a dedication ceremony for the University of California's
new Edward Teller Education Center, near Lawrence Livermore National
Laboratory.

``The loss of Dr. Edward Teller is a great loss for this laboratory and
for the nation,'' said Michael Anastasio, director of the Livermore lab.
``He was a passionate advocate for science and the development of
Lawrence Livermore National Lab. He put his heart and soul into this
laboratory and into ensuring the security of this nation, and his
dedication never foundered.''

Teller is survived by his son, Paul, daughter Wendy, four grandchildren
and one great-grandchild. His wife of 66 years, known as Mici but born
Augusta Maria Harkanyi, died in 2000.

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From: Mike Lorrey [mlorrey_yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 12:46 PM
To: matus; eudaemonists_matus1976.com
Subject: Re: [eudaemonists] Edward Teller, 1908-2003

The local paper ran his obituary on the front page with Leni
Reifenstahl's obit. Given they are a left wing rag, its obvious they
wanted to condemn by association, despite that Dr. Teller (Dziller)
fled Leni's Nazi Germany to the US and used his genius to fight
totalitarianism. While they used rather loaded semantic terms with him,
they seemed to try to whitewash her, talking of how she once confronted
Hitler about his anti-semitism and her claims that she knew nothing of
the final solution. It seemed like they wanted to put them both on
morally equivalent footing, perhaps illustrate him as even worse than a
Nazi.

--- matus <matus_matus1976.com> wrote:
> A sad day, the grumpy, nuclear bomb loving, social commentor, hated
> by
> liberals, favorite physicist of mine Edward Teller now ceases to
> exist....
>
>
> 24) Edward Teller, 1908-2003
> SiliconValley.Com
>
> "Edward Teller, the 'father of the hydrogen bomb,' a Hungarian-born
> physicist who tirelessly promoted the development of nuclear weapons
> for half a century, died Tuesday at his home on the campus of
> Stanford University. He was 95 and had been in declining health. He
> had suffered a stroke a few days earlier. ... Born in Budapest in
> 1908, Teller studied under both Neils Bohr and Werner Heisenberg,
> among the pre-eminent scientists of their time, and went on to become
>
> a leading player among the pantheon of physicists who unraveled the
> inner secrets of the atom in the halcyon years of nuclear discovery
> in the 1930s and 1940s." (09/10/03)
>
> http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/siliconvalley/6737920.htm
>
> Physicist Edward Teller dies at 95
> DRIVING FORCE BEHIND H-BOMB SUCCUMBS AT STANFORD
> By Dan Stober
> Mercury News
>
>
> Edward Teller, the ``father of the hydrogen bomb,'' a Hungarian-born
> physicist who tirelessly promoted the development of nuclear weapons
> for
> half a century, died Tuesday at his home on the campus of Stanford
> University. He was 95 and had been in declining health. He had
> suffered
> a stroke a few days earlier.
>
> He was the driving force behind the establishment of the Bay Area's
> nuclear weapons design lab, Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory.
>
> Born in Budapest in 1908, Teller studied under both Neils Bohr and
> Werner Heisenberg, among the pre-eminent scientists of their time,
> and
> went on to become a leading player among the pantheon of physicists
> who
> unraveled the inner secrets of the atom in the halcyon years of
> nuclear
> discovery in the 1930s and 1940s.
>
> In 1928, while at the University of Munich, he slipped beneath the
> wheels of a streetcar and lost his left foot. The heavy staff he used
> to
> aid his walking in later years became as much a part of his
> formidable
> presence as his famous bushy eyebrows and thick, commanding Hungarian
> accent.
>
> He sailed to the United States in 1935 with his wife, Mici, part of a
> flood of Jewish scientists fleeing Nazism. His first important
> political
> act was behind the wheel of his Plymouth in 1939, when he drove Leo
> Szilard to Albert Einstein's house to persuade the scientist to
> compose
> his famous letter to Franklin Roosevelt about the possibility of an
> atom
> bomb.
>
> From there Teller never looked back, dedicating his career to nuclear
> weapons. From his position at Lawrence Livermore and later Stanford's
> Hoover Institution, he advised U.S. presidents during several
> decades,
> arguing against nuclear test bans and in favor of developing new
> types
> of weapons.
>
> He was fascinated by all things nuclear and was known in the weapons
> world as a fountain of imaginative ideas, the details of which he
> left
> to others. He promoted the idea of using hydrogen bombs to dig a
> harbor
> in Alaska, to deflect killer asteroids approaching Earth and mused
> about
> whether they could be used to change the direction of hurricanes.
>
> Teller championed nuclear power plants and nuclear space ships. In
> the
> 1980s, his campaigning for a hydrogen bomb that could theoretically
> emit
> enough X-ray laser beams to knock down a fleet of Russian missiles
> helped propel the creation of the Reagan-era ``Star Wars'' program.
>
> As a Los Alamos scientist in World War II, Teller was present at the
> creation of the atomic bomb, donning dark welding glasses, suntan
> lotion
> and heavy gloves to protect against the light and heat as a test of
> the
> world's first atom bomb lighted the dark New Mexico sky.
>
> Late in his life, he told the Mercury News he had no regrets. ``Can
> you
> tell me why I should have regrets?'' he said.
>
> He was beloved by many conservatives and had a following in
> Washington,
> but he also was vilified by liberals and lampooned as ``Dr.
> Strangelove,'' the bomb-loving scientist in Stanley Kubrik's spoof
> about
> nuclear weapons and the Cold War.
>
> His life was forever altered by events in 1954 that revolved, as
> always,
> around nuclear weapons. After the atomic bombing that ended the war
> against Japan in 1945, Teller had pushed hard for the development of
> the
> more powerful hydrogen bomb, contributing crucial design concepts.
> But
> he was so frustrated by what he saw as foot-dragging by Los Alamos
> Director J. Robert Oppenheimer that he successfully lobbied for the
> founding of a second bomb lab in Livermore in 1952, constructed as an
> offshoot of the University of California's Radiation Laboratory.
>
> In April 1954, Teller testified against Oppenheimer, advising the
> Atomic
> Energy Commission that the respected scientist could not be trusted
> with
> a security clearance. His testimony was greeted with outrage by many
> of
> his former Los Alamos colleagues, some of whom shunned him for life.
>
> He was stung by the criticism and found solace in teaching at the
> University of California-Berkeley and sharing his ideas with younger
> scientists at his lab in Livermore. Their crowning achievement, aided
> by
> Teller's technical insights and political ability, was the shrinking
> of
> the H-bomb. During the 1950s, the Livermore scientist created a
> hydrogen
> bomb small enough to fit on a missile carried inside a Polaris
> submarine, forever changing the calculus of nuclear deterrence.
>
> As he aged, Teller was showered with honors and he traveled to his
> native Hungary, where he was treated as a celebrity.
>
> Less than two months ago, he was awarded the Presidential Medal of
> Freedom, the nation's highest civilian honor, during a special
> ceremony
> presided over by President Bush. Teller was too frail to attend but
> said
> he was touched by the honor.
>
> ``In my long life, I had to face some difficult decisions and found
> myself often in doubt whether I acted the right way,'' he said.
> ``Thus
> the medal is a great blessing for me.''
>
> On Tuesday, Teller, an advocate of science education, had been
> scheduled
> to appear at a dedication ceremony for the University of California's
> new Edward Teller Education Center, near Lawrence Livermore National
> Laboratory.
>
> ``The loss of Dr. Edward Teller is a great loss for this laboratory
> and
> for the nation,'' said Michael Anastasio, director of the Livermore
> lab.
> ``He was a passionate advocate for science and the development of
> Lawrence Livermore National Lab. He put his heart and soul into this
> laboratory and into ensuring the security of this nation, and his
> dedication never foundered.''
>
> Teller is survived by his son, Paul, daughter Wendy, four
> grandchildren
> and one great-grandchild. His wife of 66 years, known as Mici but
> born
> Augusta Maria Harkanyi, died in 2000.
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: eudaemonists-unsubscribe_matus1976.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: eudaemonists-help_matus1976.com
>

__________________________________
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From: Mike Lorrey [mlorrey_yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 12:46 PM
To: matus; eudaemonists_matus1976.com
Subject: Re: [eudaemonists] Edward Teller, 1908-2003

__________________________________
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Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
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From: Dehede011_aol.com
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 12:49 PM
To: eudaemonists_matus1976.com
Subject: Re: [eudaemonists] Edward Teller, 1908-2003

In a message dated 9/12/2003 11:46:43 AM Central Standard Time,
mlorrey_yahoo.com writes: Given they are a left wing rag, its obvious they wanted to
condemn by association,

This sort of thing has been going on for years. I was surprised he had
stayed alive so long else the left wing would have been bashing him.
Ron Harrison

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From: matus [matus_matus1976.com]
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 2:11 PM
To: eudaemonists_matus1976.com
Subject: RE: [eudaemonists] Edward Teller, 1908-2003

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Dehede011_aol.com
>
>In a message dated 9/12/2003 11:46:43 AM Central Standard Time,
>mlorrey_yahoo.com writes: Given they are a left wing rag, its
>obvious they wanted to
>condemn by association,
>
>This sort of thing has been going on for years. I was
>surprised he had
>stayed alive so long else the left wing would have been
>bashing him. Ron Harrison
>

So I was, I just picked up his 'memoirs' about a week ago, its around
~1,000 pages. When I looked at it, I thought 'wow, I am surprised he is
still alive, he must be 90 something now'

I first really heard about him years and years ago reading Carl Sagan's
'Demon Haunted World', Sagan apparently despised him, devoting an entire
chapter to bashing him (I was, and still am, a big fan of Sagan as
well). I figured if he disliked him so much, I ought to learn more
about him. Subsequent readings of Feynman, Dyson and others at Los
Alamos led me to respect him enough to be interested in buying some of
his books. And his comments in his books solidified his place as an
intellectual inspiration of mine and someone I respected and who loss
saddens me.

Regards,

Michael

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From: Dehede011_aol.com
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 3:59 PM
To: matus_matus1976.com
Subject: Re: [eudaemonists] Edward Teller, 1908-2003

In a message dated 9/12/2003 1:09:56 PM Central Standard Time,
matus_matus1976.com writes: And his comments in his books solidified his place as an
intellectual inspiration of mine and someone I respected and who loss saddens me.

Thank you for those words, I truly never knew the man on any level and it is
good to hear reasonable person's opinion without all the political bias.
Ron Harrison

From: Lee Corbin [lcorbin_tsoft.com]
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 10:21 PM
To: Eudaemonists_Matus1976. Com
Subject: RE: [eudaemonists] Edward Teller, 1908-2003

Michael writes

> So I was, I just picked up his 'memoirs' about a week ago, its around
> ~1,000 pages. When I looked at it, I thought 'wow, I am surprised he is
> still alive, he must be 90 something now'

Yes, the last guy of that era, so far as I know.

> I first really heard about him years and years ago reading Carl Sagan's
> 'Demon Haunted World', Sagan apparently despised him, devoting an entire
> chapter to bashing him (I was, and still am, a big fan of Sagan as
> well).

It makes perfect sense that Sagan would despise him---given Teller's
correct intuitions about Communism and the left---but how did he
manage to stick that in "Demon Haunted World"? I thought that that
books denounced pseudo-science. I subscribe to The Skeptical Inquirer
in which he wrote a lot of good pieces attacking pseudo-science, and
read some of his earlier book. I don't see the Teller connection.

> And his [Teller's] comments in his books solidified his place as an
> intellectual inspiration of mine and someone I respected and who loss
> saddens me.

Yes. While it's true that he could be vain and egotistical, enough
to sometimes cause problems with other scientists, he was, they
admitted, absolutely first rate as a physicist. In addition, of
course, he was rare among that set in the forties and fifties in
having perfectly fine intuitions of what the left was up to.

Lee

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From: matus [matus_matus1976.com]
Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2003 11:22 AM
To: 'Eudaemonists_Matus1976. Com'
Subject: RE: [eudaemonists] Edward Teller, 1908-2003

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Lee Corbin [mailto:lcorbin_tsoft.com]
>
>Michael writes
>
>> So I was, I just picked up his 'memoirs' about a week ago,
>its around
>> ~1,000 pages. When I looked at it, I thought 'wow, I am
>surprised he
>> is still alive, he must be 90 something now'
>
>Yes, the last guy of that era, so far as I know.

From a comment on the extropy list made by Damien, it appears Gell Man,
Feynmans arch nemesis is still kicking around. Probably, no doubt,
because he is still annoyed that everyone knows who Feynman is but no
one knows who he is. =) Dyson is still roaming about as well.

>
>> I first really heard about him years and years ago reading Carl
>> Sagan's 'Demon Haunted World', Sagan apparently despised
>him, devoting
>> an entire chapter to bashing him (I was, and still am, a big fan of
>> Sagan as well).
>
>It makes perfect sense that Sagan would despise him---given
>Teller's correct intuitions about Communism and the left---but
>how did he
>manage to stick that in "Demon Haunted World"? I thought that
>that books denounced pseudo-science. I subscribe to The
>Skeptical Inquirer in which he wrote a lot of good pieces
>attacking pseudo-science, and read some of his earlier book.
>I don't see the Teller connection.

Sagan also surely despised him for his steadfast support of nuclear
weapons and power (I think Sagan was one of the co-discovers of the
'Nuclear Winter' phenomena) and for Teller accusations against Oppy.
But I cant exactly remember how he segued that into a book primarily
about psuedo science. Unfortunately I have lent out all my copies of
Demon Haunted World.

Michael

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From: John K Clark [jonkc_att.net]
Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2003 1:19 PM
To: matus
Subject: Re: [eudaemonists] Edward Teller, 1908-2003

I met Teller once and he seemed like a nice man but he was not without
flaws, if he had his way there would have been enormously more atmospheric
nuclear tests and thousands of people who are alive and healthy today would
be dead from cancer; he seriously underestimated the harmful effects of
"moderate" exposure to radiation, and in a debate with Linus Pauling (an
even greater scientist than Teller) hinted it might even be beneficial.
Also, his dream 20 years ago that with existing technology an X ray Laser
could shoot down thousands of ICBM's in an instant proved to be moonshine.

John K Clark jonkc_att.net

From: Lee Corbin [lcorbin_tsoft.com]
Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2003 1:48 PM
To: matus
Subject: RE: [eudaemonists] Edward Teller, 1908-2003

Michael writes

> Sagan also surely despised him for his steadfast support of nuclear
> weapons and power (I think Sagan was one of the co-discovers of the
> 'Nuclear Winter' phenomena)

Yes. In fact, Sagan had a particularly interesting take
on the dangers of the arms race. He said, "imagine that
you are in a cellar with gasoline on the floor up to
everyone's ankles. You have a box of matches, and your
adversary has a box of matches. Just what good does it
do to threaten to throw a match?"

His implication was obviously that even unilateral disarmament
is the rational thing to do. It is impossible that he could be
so naive about either power politics or the nature of ballistic
threats. I cannot imagine what was going on.

> and for Teller accusations against Oppy.

Yes. Coulter's book "Treason" paints a great portrait of the
difference between what the McCarthy "era" was really like and
how it is portrayed. People like Sagan (who was rather young
at the time) simply could never understand that while it may
have been a witch-hunt, in this case the witches were very,
very real.

Lee

From: Lee Corbin [lcorbin_tsoft.com]
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 3:19 AM
To: Eudaemonists_Matus1976. Com
Subject: Re: [eudaemonists] Edward Teller, 1908-2003

Michael writes

> Sagan also surely despised him for his steadfast support of nuclear
> weapons and power (I think Sagan was one of the co-discovers of the
> 'Nuclear Winter' phenomena)

> and for Teller accusations against Oppy.

Lee

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From: Mike Lorrey [mlorrey_yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 11:42 AM
To: lcorbin_tsoft.com; Eudaemonists_Matus1976. Com
Subject: Re: [eudaemonists] Edward Teller, 1908-2003

--- Lee Corbin <lcorbin_tsoft.com> wrote:
> Michael writes
>
> > Sagan also surely despised him for his steadfast support of nuclear
> > weapons and power (I think Sagan was one of the co-discovers of the
> > 'Nuclear Winter' phenomena)
>
> Yes. In fact, Sagan had a particularly interesting take
> on the dangers of the arms race. He said, "imagine that
> you are in a cellar with gasoline on the floor up to
> everyone's ankles. You have a box of matches, and your
> adversary has a box of matches. Just what good does it
> do to threaten to throw a match?"
>
> His implication was obviously that even unilateral disarmament
> is the rational thing to do. It is impossible that he could be
> so naive about either power politics or the nature of ballistic
> threats. I cannot imagine what was going on.

Sagan is simply a fool, and not just for his anti-MAD politicking. I
always found his arguments for non-terrestrial life forms to be rather
specious (and that Brin bought into them is telling) to the point of
ludicrosity. Even if hydrogen balloon creatures exist, they would never
develop technologies of any time, not in the sort of time periods since
the start of the universe. If a life form never develops technology,
they really are of rather miniscule scientific value compared to
finding intelligent technologically oriented life forms such as
hominids seem to be.

>
> > and for Teller accusations against Oppy.
>
> Yes. Coulter's book "Treason" paints a great portrait of the
> difference between what the McCarthy "era" was really like and
> how it is portrayed. People like Sagan (who was rather young
> at the time) simply could never understand that while it may
> have been a witch-hunt, in this case the witches were very,
> very real.

Well, you saw the reaction from the lefties on the exi list when I
documented that Lucille Ball was a leader of the Communist Party in
California. While this is well proven by the HCUA archives, it isn't
something you'd see in the major media or admitted by the left. Nor is
the documented connection between Dezi Arnaz and the pre-revolutionary
Fidel Castro.

I just got Coulter's book and have not had a chance to read it yet
(still working on Herbert's "Butlerian Jihad").

Just finished S Andrew Swann's omnibus Moreau edition (all three first
Nohar Rajasthan related novels).

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