Eudaemonists Archive 2003 August

From: matus [matus@matus1976.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 10:01 AM
To: eudaemonists@matus1976.com
Subject: [eudaemonists] New Mailing List - Welcome to Eudaemonists!

Friends,

In light of recent events on the Extropy list, I decided to get my butt
moving on the list I proposed a few weeks back. My only hangup was that
with the current list software built into my web hosting service, you
have to hit 'Reply to all' to get the message to go back to the list,
the default 'reply' will only send the message to the sender. I know
that can be changed, but I am still working on figuring out how, until
then, remember to hit 'Reply to all' (and to delete the original sender
in the 'To' field, unless you want a message going to the list and to
the Sender)

That being said, I want to welcome everyone to my new list, which I have
called 'Eudaemonists' After Aristotle's concept of total human well
being through the pursuit of rational humanistic endeavors. The
capacity to reason is the single largest differentiator between humans
and other beings on this Earth, and as such it is the most uniquely
human. To embrace humanity, one must embrace the uniqueness that we
hold, one must embrace reason. Similarly, the capacity to recognize and
reflect upon the deepest workings of nature, and of beauty, and passion
are powerful and primary human definers. To me, to embrace reason,
nature, beauty, and passion is to be a Eudaemonist.

For those who do not know me well, allow me to introduce myself. I am a
27 year old living in North Eastern Connecticut. As you gather from my
posts on the extropy list, my interests are in Science, physics,
politics, history, ethics, philosophy, motorcycles. I am also
interested in Computer animation, music, poetry, art, and film. Some
intellectual inspirations of mine have been Ayn Rand, Aristotle, Carl
Sagan, Richard Feynman, Isaac Asimov, Robert Forward, Michael Fumento,
Paul Davies, Kip Thorne, Michael Shermer, James Randi, Matt Ridley,
Richard Dawkins, Immanual Kant, John Stossel, Virginia Postrel... Among
many others.

Although I am reluctant to call myself part of any 'isms' some isms that
I share a majority of general descriptions with are humanism,
skepticism, libertarianism (neo), atheism, I would have previously said
'Extropianism' but I'm not sure about that one anymore, given the
behavior of official representations of that particular 'ism', and, of
course, Eudaemonism!

Although I am most Vocal on the extropy of matters of politics, my
deepest interests lie in Physics and Inventing. I am currently working
for the Lifeboat Foundation (www.lifeboat.com) as their lead Animator,
Modeler. I am designing and constructing in 3D a plausible self
sustaining space colony, some of the images are currently available on
their site. I am also in the process of building a recumbent
motorcycle, and plan to market and manufacture small numbers of the
vehicle. Other than that, I cant think of anything more to say about
myself. If you'd like, please present a similar introduction of
yourself.

I hope everyone finds the list valuable and intellectually stimulating.
I hope that this list will be friendly toward productive endeavors as
well, as I will surely toss out some ideas and ask a lot of questions
pertaining to things I am working on.

Enjoy

Michael Dickey

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From: Lee Corbin [lcorbin@tsoft.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 12:09 AM
To: matus; eudaemonists@matus1976.com
Subject: RE: [eudaemonists] New Mailing List - Welcome to Eudaemonists!

Michael Dickey writes

> Friends,
>
> In light of recent events on the Extropy list, I decided to get my butt
> moving on the list I proposed a few weeks back. My only hangup was that
> with the current list software built into my web hosting service, you
> have to hit 'Reply to all' to get the message to go back to the list,

Whatever. Reading the rest of your post concerning your interests
and activities, let me say that I am looking forward greatly to
further exchanges here! Due to the recent fiasco on Extropians,
I just have not been in the mood to post anything there. Maybe
things will improve there, maybe not, but it shouldn't matter here.

> As you gather from my
> posts on the Extropy list, my interests are in Science, physics,
> politics, history, ethics, philosophy, motorcycles. I am also
> interested in Computer animation, music, poetry, art, and film. Some
> intellectual inspirations of mine have been Ayn Rand, Aristotle, Carl
> Sagan, Richard Feynman, Isaac Asimov, Robert Forward, Michael Fumento,
> Paul Davies, Kip Thorne, Michael Shermer, James Randi, Matt Ridley,
> Richard Dawkins, Immanuel Kant, John Stossel, Virginia Postrel... Among
> many others.

Sounds great. Hmm, more than one of those reminds me of something...
Now which should I post on? :-) Okay, probably later tonight (when
the East Coast is asleep :-(

Lee

From: Lee Corbin [lcorbin@tsoft.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 12:09 AM
To: matus; eudaemonists@matus1976.com
Subject: RE: [eudaemonists] New Mailing List - Welcome to Eudaemonists!

Michael Dickey writes

Sounds great. Hmm, more than one of those reminds me of something...
Now which should I post on? :-) Okay, probably later tonight (when
the East Coast is asleep :-(

Lee

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From: Dehede011@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 12:28 AM
To: lcorbin@tsoft.com; eudaemonists@matus1976.com
Subject: Re: [eudaemonists] New Mailing List - Welcome to Eudaemonists!

Sign me up guys, sign me up. Tonight I had another run in with "the board" because I objected to some idiots attacking one of our members that is no longer on the Extropy list. Ron Harrison LOL Honest to God, I don't know whether to fall down laughing at those guys or sit down and cry. <G>

From: Lee Corbin [lcorbin@tsoft.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 12:31 AM
To: matus; eudaemonists@matus1976.com
Subject: [eudaemonists] Game Theory Problem

I would like people's reactions---either gut instinct or
cool rational analysis---to the following game. Your
answer will help me learn more about Nash equilibria.

You can play Rows or you can play Columns. You don't know
ahead of time Who you will be---so you think about what you
would do in either case. Here is the payoff matrix:

C1 C2

R1 2,3 1,5

R2 0,1 0,1

(For those who are not seeing this in fixed font, sorry.
It's a square array of pairs of numbers.) For example,
let's suppose that you are playing Rows and you play R1
and Mr. Columns plays C2. Then you get 1 dollar and he
gets 5 dollars.

The idea is that each pair represents first the payoff
Rows gets and second the payoff Columns gets. It's
a convention that the one on the left is Rows' payoff
and the one on the right is Columns' payoff.

Okay, now you may wish to think of that as thousands of
dollars instead of single dollars so that it is *important*
to do the best for yourself.

Now you got $1,000 say, and the guy playing Columns got
$5,000. Well, that's a nice game to play, but if you
are going to play a lot of times with this guy, it may
occur to you that he is being selfish and when you play
R1 he should play C1. Then you would get $2,000 and he
would get $3,000.

Now he maybe is always going to play C2. You may wish
to "punish" him for being so greedy by playing R2. True,
then you get 0 but he only gets 1, and this lets him know
your dissatisfaction.

You may imagine this as "the two people never meet face to
face" but only are informed of each other's plays.
You may also imagine that you are trying to save human lives
and the adversary is trying to save trees. The important
thing is to do as best you can, for the long run, assume
he is rational and *wants* his winnings as badly as you
want yours.

What would you do as Rows? What would you do as Columns?

Thanks,
Lee

P.S. To send this, I just replied All to Michael's message
and edited the subject line to change the subject, leaving
[eudaemonists] alone.

From: Lee Corbin [lcorbin@tsoft.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 12:31 AM
To: matus; eudaemonists@matus1976.com
Subject: [eudaemonists] Game Theory Problem

I would like people's reactions---either gut instinct or
cool rational analysis---to the following game. Your
answer will help me learn more about Nash equilibria.

You can play Rows or you can play Columns. You don't know
ahead of time Who you will be---so you think about what you
would do in either case. Here is the payoff matrix:

C1 C2

R1 2,3 1,5

R2 0,1 0,1

Okay, now you may wish to think of that as thousands of
dollars instead of single dollars so that it is *important*
to do the best for yourself.

Now he maybe is always going to play C2. You may wish
to "punish" him for being so greedy by playing R2. True,
then you get 0 but he only gets 1, and this lets him know
your dissatisfaction.

What would you do as Rows? What would you do as Columns?

Thanks,
Lee

P.S. To send this, I just replied All to Michael's message
and edited the subject line to change the subject, leaving
[eudaemonists] alone.

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From: Lee Corbin [lcorbin@tsoft.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 1:19 AM
To: eudaemonists@matus1976.com
Subject: [eudaemonists] Korean War Question

At first I did not want to buy Ann Coulter's new book
"Treason" because I figured it would just be a rant
against liberals. But then in a bookstore I opened
it up at random and found a lot of very good info.

Well, yes, the first chapter is just a rant (to me).
But then she talks about how Evans is going to write
a definitive book about McCarthy, and it may turn out
that you cannot fault McCarthy much, if at all.

Anyway, I think I have found an error on her part, but
am not sure. She states that the U.S. Army in the
Korean War actually crossed the Yalu. That was new
to me. Anyway, google doesn't really say, and so I'm
having to ask. She's off the hook if at least one
soldier got to the other side. I have read where
some part of the U.S. Army was "to the Yalu" though,
but haven't yet read that it was crossed at all.

Lee

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From: Lee Corbin [lcorbin@tsoft.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 3:52 AM
To: eudaemonists@matus1976.com
Subject: [eudaemonists] Worst Case Scenario

Here is a question that has just occurred to me that
I could not possibly post to the Extropians because
of all the usual catcalls and hoots. I would end
up spending all the time debating the propriety of
the question!

IN this worst-case scenario, many new people are
discovered in adjacent dimensions or on nearby
planets in some way. But their intelligence and
capabilities run the full gamut from ourselves
(and our geniuses) all the way down to sub-animal.
Some manage to get by with almost no intelligence
at all, picking fruit in naturally occuring
orchards.

But higher level humans (companies) have taken control
of those forests, and feed the human-types from pig
troughs. Meanwhile, what to do about voting rights,
civil rights, drivers licenses, etc.? Recall that
the range of intelligence is completely uniform,
with no natural separations.

Lee

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From: matus [matus@matus1976.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 10:09 AM
To: eudaemonists@matus1976.com
Subject: RE: [eudaemonists] Game Theory Problem

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lee Corbin [mailto:lcorbin@tsoft.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 12:31 AM
> To: matus; eudaemonists@matus1976.com
> Subject: [eudaemonists] Game Theory Problem
>
>
> I would like people's reactions---either gut instinct or
> cool rational analysis---to the following game. Your
> answer will help me learn more about Nash equilibria.
>
> You can play Rows or you can play Columns. You don't know
> ahead of time Who you will be---so you think about what you
> would do in either case. Here is the payoff matrix:
>
> C1 C2
>
> R1 2,3 1,5
>
> R2 0,1 0,1
>

Hmm, tough call. I would have said I would always play R1, but I would
surely get annoyed that he kept playing C2. I would probably try to
follow the tit for tat with an occasional cooperate that always wins
non-zero sum game competitions year after year. In other words, start
by playing R1, and if he plays C2, I would play R2 as long as he played
C2, then would play an occasional R1, if he switched to C1, I would
stick with R1 as long as he stuck with C1.

Michael

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From: matus [matus@matus1976.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 10:17 AM
To: eudaemonists@matus1976.com
Subject: RE: [eudaemonists] Game Theory Problem

> > C1 C2
> >
> > R1 2,3 1,5
> >
> > R2 0,1 0,1
> >
>
> Hmm, tough call. I would have said I would always play R1,
> but I would surely get annoyed that he kept playing C2. I
> would probably try to follow the tit for tat with an
> occasional cooperate that always wins non-zero sum game
> competitions year after year. In other words, start by
> playing R1, and if he plays C2, I would play R2 as long as he
> played C2, then would play an occasional R1, if he switched
> to C1, I would stick with R1 as long as he stuck with C1.
>
> Michael
>
>

For more info on non-zero sum game theory, see Richard Dawkins 'The
Selfish Gene' or Matt Ridleys' 'The Origins of Virtue' Both excellent
books. On a side note, I was thoroughly disappointed that 'A Beautiful
Mind' (A movie based on John Nash) made absolutely no attempt to explain
how powerful and valuable his contributions were. I believe they could
have easily been made presentable and understandable as a concept to the
audience. His work created the entire field and concept of non-zero sum
games, and laid the ground work to understand the evolution of
cooperation and virtue.

Michael

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From: matus [matus@matus1976.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 1:32 PM
To: eudaemonists@matus1976.com
Subject: [eudaemonists] Libertarians who loathe Israel

A while back I spent a good amount of time in a debate on Isreal,
arguing that the majority of its behavior is morally sound, and
realizing the sickining situation in which the terrorist arafat and his
thugs brainwash palestinians children into murderous suicide bombings
purely on the racist conviction that no Arab can live under a jewish
state! Despite the fact that many Palestinians would, surprise, prefer
to live under the only democracy in the middle east instead of yet
another Islamic theological totalitarian nightmare. - Michael

Here is a good article on...

Libertarians who loathe Israel

- Excerpts -

"Israel's economy is by no means ideal, it is not much different from
Western Europe's Third-Way economies. Still, most libertarians find
Israel particularly repugnant. With a respectable per capita GDP of
roughly $17,500, compared to the Palestinian Authority's $1,000, Israel
apparently has nothing to recommend her. The PA, on the other hand -
with no economy, no free speech and press, no independent courts, no
sound contract laws, and no individual or property rights - wins the
sympathies of legions of freedom lovers hands down."

"Consider the Israeli fence now inspiring hyperbolic hysteria among
libertarians. What can a leadership do to stop its people from being
blown up in the streets as they go about their daily lives? ...The
comparisons between the Israeli fence and the wall between East and West
Berlin is theatrically invoked: "Mr. Sharon, tear down that wall," rings
Raimondo's cleverly adapted Reagan classic. (An equally plaintive plea
from Israelis went unheard. So I'll make it for them: "Mahmoud Abbas,
alias Abu Mazen, aka Yasser Arafat, stop blowing up Israelis.")"

"In a last-ditch attempt to physically stop attacks on its civilian
population, Israel began erecting a security fence along the West Bank.
Yet a mechanical barrier is construed by the gifted libertarian writer,
Justin Raimondo, as "an act of aggression ... a land grab of huge
proportions ..." What most reasonable people would view as a desperate
defensive measure is to Raimondo a symbol of Israeli sadism."

Raimondo thereafter follows with an idealized description (omitting
opportunity costs) of the wonders the wall can't thwart: "Markets
conquer all; they leap over walls, over oceans, to create the most
complex, interconnected, international division of labor possible ..."
...I, too, love free markets. But open borders are not a prerequisite
for free trade. People can trade goods very well without trading places.
Moreover, and forgive me for chuckling...Israel needs the economic
powerhouse that is the PA like China needs trade with a tribe of
rain-forest-dwelling pygmies."

- End excerpts -

from - http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=34057

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From: Lee Corbin [lcorbin@tsoft.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 6:28 PM
To: eudaemonists@matus1976.com
Subject: RE: [eudaemonists] New Mailing List - Welcome to Eudaemonists!

Ron wrote

> Sign me up guys, sign me up. Tonight I had another run
> in with "the board" because I objected to some idiots
> attacking one of our members that is no longer on the
> Extropy list.

You did? Someone wrote you offline? Can you say what the
essence of their "warning" or whatever was? (I realize
that it is not proper to quote their email.)

Thanks,
Lee

> Ron Harrison LOL Honest to God, I don't know whether to
> fall down laughing at those guys or sit down and cry. <G>

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From: Lee Corbin [lcorbin@tsoft.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 6:32 PM
To: eudaemonists@matus1976.com
Subject: RE: [eudaemonists] Worst Case Scenario

Mitch writes

> [Lee wrote]
> > IN this worst-case scenario, many new people are
> > discovered in adjacent dimensions or on nearby
> > planets in some way. But their intelligence and
> > capabilities run the full gamut from ourselves
> > (and our geniuses) all the way down to sub-animal.
> > Some manage to get by with almost no intelligence
> > at all, picking fruit in naturally occurring
> > orchards.

> Basically the answer, should be for us to Uplift the
> sub-creatures; unless there is a compelling reason
> not to mess with them.

The idea is that that is not possible. See, we really
are lucky that humans diverged from each other so
recently, evolutionarily speaking. What if there was
already a tremendous continuum between us and almost
completely unconscious humans (i.e. with whom we could
still mate)?

Ron writes

> Do I understand the question? The essence of man is in his
> intelligence not his shape. If these former men have lost
> all but animal intelligence then just like today they lose
> all rights and privileges. Their having human shape does
> not entitle them to have us pretend they have human intelligence.

Well, basically I agree. But how is it to be administered?
What would you do? Give everyone an IQ test? (That is what
I would do.) But then what? What rights are given to whom?
And I wonder what happens if we just let nature take its
course (but that would definitely mean slavery just for
starters!).

Lee

P.S. I think that Mitch forgot to "Reply to All" and so
only I got his message.

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From: Lee Corbin [lcorbin@tsoft.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 7:09 PM
To: eudaemonists@matus1976.com
Subject: RE: [eudaemonists] Libertarians who loathe Israel

Michael writes

> A while back I spent a good amount of time in a debate on Israel,
> arguing that the majority of its behavior is morally sound, and
> realizing the sickening situation in which the terrorist Arafat and his
> thugs brainwash Palestinians children into murderous suicide bombings
> purely on the racist conviction that no Arab can live under a Jewish
> state! Despite the fact that many Palestinians would, surprise, prefer
> to live under the only democracy in the middle east instead of yet
> another Islamic theological totalitarian nightmare.

For me, the Palestinians behave definitely worse that the
Israelis, but remember that the Israeli terrorists used to
blow up buildings and kill civilians when it was *their*
only recourse. (Or so they felt at the time.)

But despite the advantages of the Israeli position---and the
"luxury" I guess of not having to kill civilians anymore---
it is essential on moral and economic grounds for us to always
support Israel, e.g., guaranteeing its right to exist.
But that does not mean that we have to endorse the things
they do that make the situation worse, such as their colonizing
parts of other countries. (Maybe those are bargaining chips
---so I don't know, maybe that's all right.)

By a number of people's definitions, I am both a racist and
an anti-Semite. That's because I do not hesitate to react
negatively to groups when it is called for. I would be willing
to extend the benefit of doubt to Libertarians who are against
Israel, because unless it's part of a pattern of anti-Semitism,
then I don't have a problem with that per se (I merely think
that they are wrong, because it conflicts with my position
as above).

In fact, is there evidence that the Libertarians going against
Israel also show other symptoms of true anti-Semitism, e.g.,
discrimination against or hatred of Jews as a group?

Well, I didn't really see any such "loathing" referenced in the
article! So categorizing these libertarians as "hysterical"
in their opposition to the fence is rather overdoing it.

But except for that defensiveness, and attribution of attitudes
that may not be true, this is a *great* article. It contains
extremely good advice for both Israel and the U.S.

Penetrating to a deeper level, in my opinion, the article
considers the "rights" of just anyone to work just anywhere
they please. If all the Israelis were like me, for example,
a wall would have been erected a LONG TIME ago, and no Arab
whatsoever would be allowed on *our* side of it. (My answer
is so extreme that you wouldn't even call it apartheid. You
call it "separate countries".)

The only way that Israel will remain for the Jewish people
is if they stop trafficking with Arabs in their midst. They
can trade across borders all they want, but it's just asking
for trouble to include non-Jews in their population. Likewise,
if I were an Arab, I would have nothing to do with Israel.
We would wall them up, and perhaps not even trade with them
until we got our land back.

But what I am proposing will never happen, of course, any more
than I could have stood on the shores of South Carolina in
1700 and said "we should not be bringing black people here".
Or I could stand on the California/Mexico border and say
basically the same thing. But the libertarians are right
(and the author wrong) about one thing. In the end, economics
triumphs. People ultimately care a lot more about money
than anything.

Lee

> from - http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=34057

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From: Lee Corbin [lcorbin@tsoft.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 9:00 PM
To: matus; eudaemonists@matus1976.com
Subject: RE: [eudaemonists] Game Theory Problem

Michael writes

Thanks Michael! This is informative. (I hope that some others
say what they would do.) If you don't mind one more question ;-)
(what am I, Columbo?)

Here is a description of the Ultimatum Game if you have
never heard of it. Say you live in California, and it's
announced that some guy in New Jersey is going to be
selected at random by some billionaire or some corporation
or somebody fleeing Nigeria with a lot of loot (or something).

Once this random selection is made, the guy in New Jersey
received a check for $100,000 which, however, he may not
cash until he has split some unknown part of it with some
random guy from California. Here is how that works: he
picks some portion of the 100 grand---any portion at all---
writes a check, and sends it on to the referee who will
pass it to the random guy in California. If the Californian
is "happy" with his share, then the Californian merely deposits
the check. If the Californian is *not* happy, the Californian
merely tears up his check. The downside for the New Jersey
guy is that this action invalidates his own check!

For example, if I were the guy in New Jersey, I might send
a fair portion of the $100,000. I would not want to insult
the Californian, because unless he cashes his check, mine
is invalid! If I were the guy in California and received
a ridiculously small amount---say one dollar---I would
probably just tear up the check. To hell with the stingy
New Jersey guy, he can just lose his $99,999 for being so
greedy.

So: question A: if you were the Californian, what is the
least amount that you would accept?

Question B: if you were the New Jersey guy, what is the
portion you would send.

(It is forbidden that each learns the other's identity, nor
can they communicate in any way.)

Thanks to all who will answer.

Lee

From: Lee Corbin [lcorbin@tsoft.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 9:00 PM
To: matus; eudaemonists@matus1976.com
Subject: RE: [eudaemonists] Game Theory Problem

Michael writes

Thanks Michael! This is informative. (I hope that some others
say what they would do.) If you don't mind one more question ;-)
(what am I, Columbo?)

So: question A: if you were the Californian, what is the
least amount that you would accept?

Question B: if you were the New Jersey guy, what is the
portion you would send.

(It is forbidden that each learns the other's identity, nor
can they communicate in any way.)

Thanks to all who will answer.

Lee

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From: Lee Corbin [lcorbin@tsoft.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 10:46 PM
To: matus; eudaemonists@matus1976.com
Subject: RE: [eudaemonists] Korean War Question

Mike Lorrey writes

> > Anyway, I think I have found an error on her part, but
> > am not sure. She states that the U.S. Army in the
> > Korean War actually crossed the Yalu. That was new
> > to me. Anyway, google doesn't really say, and so I'm
> > having to ask. She's off the hook if at least one
> > soldier got to the other side. I have read where
> > some part of the U.S. Army was "to the Yalu" though,
> > but haven't yet read that it was crossed at all.

> At one point in the war, we had pushed all the way to the Yalu as
> organized infantry along a consolidated front. Recon missions went
> across, as well as pilot recovery missions. This was during MacArthur's
> reign, and he made some probes and lots of conventional bombing
> missions into chinese territory specifically because the Chinese were
> so heavily engaged in saving the NK behinds with heavy support and
> training. Most of the enemy that drove south later that year were in
> fact chinese troops and not North Koreans.
> It was only when MacArthur proposed nuking Chinese targets to win the
> war that he was deposed by Truman. Can't say I blame MacArthur, there
> probably would have been less loss of life if he had done so.

Thanks, Mike. I guess Ann Coulter is vindicated. So far
none of my books says anything about those reconnaissance
missions.

Lee

P.S. It looks as though Mike did not "Reply to All".
This is turning out to be harder than it looks for
people to remember to do.

From: Lee Corbin [lcorbin@tsoft.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 10:46 PM
To: matus; eudaemonists@matus1976.com
Subject: RE: [eudaemonists] Korean War Question

Mike Lorrey writes

Thanks, Mike. I guess Ann Coulter is vindicated. So far
none of my books says anything about those reconnaissance
missions.

Lee

P.S. It looks as though Mike did not "Reply to All".
This is turning out to be harder than it looks for
people to remember to do.

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From: Mike Lorrey [mlorrey@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 11:06 PM
To: matus
Subject: Re: [eudaemonists] Libertarians who loathe Israel

There are, unfortunately, a significant number of white supremacists
and other racists who are trying to cloak themselves as libertarians.
You can usually find them pushing NORFED dollars (worth 50 cents on the
dollar) and selling/giving out copies of thinly veiled newspapers
published by various racists and conspiracy theorists.
They seem to be descended in many cases from the old Know Nothing Party
and various Populist organizations from the midwest and west.

--- matus <matus@matus1976.com> wrote:
> A while back I spent a good amount of time in a debate on Isreal,
> arguing that the majority of its behavior is morally sound, and
> realizing the sickining situation in which the terrorist arafat and
> his
> thugs brainwash palestinians children into murderous suicide bombings
> purely on the racist conviction that no Arab can live under a jewish
> state! Despite the fact that many Palestinians would, surprise,
> prefer
> to live under the only democracy in the middle east instead of yet
> another Islamic theological totalitarian nightmare. - Michael
>
> Here is a good article on...
>
> Libertarians who loathe Israel
>
> - Excerpts -
>
> "Israel's economy is by no means ideal, it is not much different from
> Western Europe's Third-Way economies. Still, most libertarians find
> Israel particularly repugnant. With a respectable per capita GDP of
> roughly $17,500, compared to the Palestinian Authority's $1,000,
> Israel
> apparently has nothing to recommend her. The PA, on the other hand -
> with no economy, no free speech and press, no independent courts, no
> sound contract laws, and no individual or property rights - wins the
> sympathies of legions of freedom lovers hands down."
>
> "Consider the Israeli fence now inspiring hyperbolic hysteria among
> libertarians. What can a leadership do to stop its people from being
> blown up in the streets as they go about their daily lives? ...The
> comparisons between the Israeli fence and the wall between East and
> West
> Berlin is theatrically invoked: "Mr. Sharon, tear down that wall,"
> rings
> Raimondo's cleverly adapted Reagan classic. (An equally plaintive
> plea
> from Israelis went unheard. So I'll make it for them: "Mahmoud Abbas,
> alias Abu Mazen, aka Yasser Arafat, stop blowing up Israelis.")"
>
> "In a last-ditch attempt to physically stop attacks on its civilian
> population, Israel began erecting a security fence along the West
> Bank.
> Yet a mechanical barrier is construed by the gifted libertarian
> writer,
> Justin Raimondo, as "an act of aggression ... a land grab of huge
> proportions ..." What most reasonable people would view as a
> desperate
> defensive measure is to Raimondo a symbol of Israeli sadism."
>
> Raimondo thereafter follows with an idealized description (omitting
> opportunity costs) of the wonders the wall can't thwart: "Markets
> conquer all; they leap over walls, over oceans, to create the most
> complex, interconnected, international division of labor possible
> ..."
> ...I, too, love free markets. But open borders are not a prerequisite
> for free trade. People can trade goods very well without trading
> places.
> Moreover, and forgive me for chuckling...Israel needs the economic
> powerhouse that is the PA like China needs trade with a tribe of
> rain-forest-dwelling pygmies."
>
> - End excerpts -
>
> from - http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=34057
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
- Gen. John Stark
Blog: Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com
Flight sims: http://www.x-plane.org/users/greendragon/
Pro-tech freedom discussion:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exi-freedom

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From: Dehede011@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 11:27 PM
To: lcorbin@tsoft.com; matus@matus1976.com; eudaemonists@matus1976.com
Subject: Re: [eudaemonists] Korean War Question

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From: Dehede011@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 11:27 PM
To: lcorbin@tsoft.com; matus@matus1976.com; eudaemonists@matus1976.com
Subject: Re: [eudaemonists] Korean War Question

Lee,
Yes, I can accept that explanation. Even with my limited experience I
am well aware that sometimes we do things that don't show in the newspapers.
A recon mission and a pilot rescue mission has the right ring to it.
In fact several of them would not surprise me.
Ron Harrison
From: matus [matus@matus1976.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 1:40 AM
To: eudaemonists@matus1976.com
Subject: [eudaemonists] Reply To all

>
> P.S. It looks as though Mike did not "Reply to All".
> This is turning out to be harder than it looks for
> people to remember to do.
>
>

Its my fault, I am still trying to figure out how to update the Reply
header on the server. Im no expert, so please bare with me =(

Michael

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From: matus [matus@matus1976.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 1:42 AM
To: eudaemonists@matus1976.com
Subject: [eudaemonists] Dumbass extropian list

> From: owner-extropians@extropy.org
> [mailto:owner-extropians@extropy.org] On Behalf Of Damien Broderick
> Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 11:29 PM
> To: extropians@extropy.org
> Subject: Please change subject line when topic alters (was:
> RE: Synthetic Diamonds)
>
>
> At 11:39 AM 8/13/03 -0400, Michael Dickey and others wrote stuff like:
>
> >Witness the banning of DDT,
> >done with entirely good intentions, has now lead to the
> death of more
> >than 20 million people, mostly children in Africa, which otherwise
> >would not have died. At the height of DDT spraying deaths
> from malaria
> >numbered in the single to low double digits every year. Now they
> >number in the millions.
>
> This has nothing to do with Synthetic Diamonds, unless a
> radical new method of either killing or breeding mosquitos
> has been developed.
>
> Damien Broderick

What an ASS!!! Hello, 20 million dead kids!!! Oh, what, the subject
line was incorrect, WHO GIVES A FUCK!

*shakes head*

Michael Dickey

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From: Lee Corbin [lcorbin@tsoft.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 7:33 PM
To: eudaemonists@matus1976.com
Subject: RE: [eudaemonists] Game Theory Problem

Michael writes

> > I would like people's reactions---either gut instinct or
> > cool rational analysis---to the following game. Your
> > answer will help me learn more about Nash equilibria.
> >
> > You can play Rows or you can play Columns. You don't know
> > ahead of time Who you will be---so you think about what you
> > would do in either case. Here is the payoff matrix:
> >
> > C1 C2
> >
> > R1 2,3 1,5
> >
> > R2 0,1 0,1
>
>
> Hmm, tough call. I would have said I would always play R1,
> but I would surely get annoyed that he kept playing C2.

Yes, me too. Not only that, but I think in the situation
Rows deserves better.

> I would probably try to follow the tit for tat with an occasional
> cooperate that always wins non-zero sum game competitions year
> after year.

Yes, you would want to signal him that you were open for
"negotiations". That is, that you were not completely
intractable.

> In other words, start by playing R1, and if he plays C2,
> I would play R2 as long as he played C2, then would play
> an occasional R1, if he switched to C1, I would
> stick with R1 as long as he stuck with C1.

Well, you are more resolute than I. I would think---
for some strange reason that I have not been able
to pin down exactly---that he deserved to get his
5 points often. So I would stop defecting against
him (i.e., playing Row 2) if he gave me, say, one
time in five or so.

It's weird. It's a little like "he's gotta show me
some respect!". I bring up that intuition and the
emotion behind it because this *does* involve our
emotions IMO. It's not IMO entirely a math problem.

Lee

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From: matus [matus@matus1976.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 8:51 PM
To: eudaemonists@matus1976.com
Subject: [eudaemonists] Blackout

A good portion of the eastern coast is experiencing a blackout,
primarily New York City!

Anyone know the cause of this blackout? The news reports suggested it
was still unclear, though it could have been a computer virus/worm.

The skyscrapers of New York go dark... Does this remind anyone else of
the end of Atlas Shrugged? Eerie. Hopefully this blackout has nothing
to do with runaway idiotic politics, such as the anti-scientific crusade
against nuclear power, if it turns out to be a supply problem, I will be
worried.

Michael Dickey.

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From: Mike Lorrey [mlorrey@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 9:16 PM
To: matus
Subject: Re: [eudaemonists] Blackout

--- matus <matus@matus1976.com> wrote:
>
> A good portion of the eastern coast is experiencing a blackout,
> primarily New York City!
>
> Anyone know the cause of this blackout? The news reports suggested
> it was still unclear, though it could have been a computer
virus/worm.
>
> The skyscrapers of New York go dark... Does this remind anyone else
> of the end of Atlas Shrugged? Eerie. Hopefully this blackout has
> nothing to do with runaway idiotic politics, such as the
anti-scientific crusade against nuclear power, if it turns out to be a
supply problem, I will be worried.

It has apparently cascaded down from some Canadian power lines in
northern NY state and Ontario and has wiped out power from Ohio to
Connecticut.

I was a bit worried when I turned on the tube this afternoon after work
and saw footage of millions of people evacuating NYC on foot cause all
the subways and trains are inoperable and the traffic lights have
snarled up traffic. I thought another 9/11 had occured. I'm rather
surprised that NY doesn't have some sort of emergency system in place,
considering how much people pay in taxes there.

__________________________________
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From: Dehede011@aol.com
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 8:09 PM
To: lcorbin@tsoft.com; eudaemonists@matus1976.com
Subject: [eudaemonists] Re: (offlist) RE: [eudaemonists] Worst Case Scenario

Lee,
That is absolutely okay. Bear with me, Lee, I will get the hang of
this.
Ron.

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From: Lee Corbin [lcorbin@tsoft.com]
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 8:23 PM
To: eudaemonists@matus1976.com
Subject: RE: [eudaemonists] Worst Case Scenario

Ron writes

> [Lee writes]
>
> What rights are given to whom? And I wonder what happens if we
> just let nature take its course (but that would definitely mean
> slavery just for starters!).
>
> That is not academic. The Bell Curve and Richard Epstein both warn us
> of rapidly (my characterization) with the both 5% on the IQ curve. We are
> rapidly approaching the day when those folks are totally unemployable and their
> choice is either living in public housing on the dole or being an inmate
> somewhere.
> You made the problem sound a little abstract IMHO but in fact it is RL
> and growing.

Yes, but sometimes problems are actually handled better in the
abstract, because you get to see what principles you wish to
endorse.

True, in our Real Life situation, we are lucky that humans are
quite a discrete group. I am reading Steven Pinker's totally
great and awesome "The Blank Slate". He really puts Lewontin,
Gould, and the rest of them in their place. It's quite obvious
that he agrees with The Bell Curve.

All right, here is my tentative answer. Comments welcome.
This is the case where we find ourselves living in a world
where human intelligence is uniformly distributed between
us on the high end and less-than-animals on the other.
We must imagine that some humans in this scenario are
totally mindless, at about the level of starfish. The
lowest type are humans who live in forests and know only
enough to raise their arms, grab fruit and stuff it in
their mouths. After grazing like this for hours, they
fall asleep. That's it. No other cognition.

What would happen if the government does not interfere depends
on culture. What the Mexicans would do is different from what
the Romanians would do is different from what the Americans
would do. In the long established Libertarian tradition of
assuming that *everyone* is a middle class white person of
no particular religious background, I predict what (passes
for) "my people" would do.

Just as they put money above everything---which has its good
and bad aspects---many folks would have nothing whatsoever to
do with those they considered inferior, and which in truth are
(in this hypothetical scenario) inferior.

But even more would attempt to make money from them somehow,
and so numbers of them would be used as elephants are used in
some parts of the world. Now, not all humans are as smart as
elephants in this scenario, so I am speaking about the ones
that would be almost as useful as elephants. Their drivers
would take them into the forests to gather fruit, clear land,
dig ditches, and so on. The brightest of the elephant class
humans would also be marketed as personal slaves, because they
will follow people obediently and carry things, provide shade,
and be useful if physical effort is required. Big strong ones
would sell at a premium.

The very dumbest would be herded out of the forests and killed
because they were just in the way.

(If you doubt me, consult evolution: imagine two nearby communities
A and B. A is very abstemious and won't abide slavery. B will.
The history of the deep south will be repeated: those that use the
slaves will profit, and their memes will spread.)

What would communities do with people who were very stupid but
smarter than elephants? I predict that it would depend on how
well they spoke. If they could get about a 90 on an IQ
test, then they would be considered "one of us", and given full
civil rights. If they could speak, but could not pass the test,
then they'd be property---but property that could not legally be
mistreated. Their "legal guardians" (we tend to use euphemisms
a lot) would be prohibited from harming them excessively or letting
them come to harm.

Again---this is *only* a prediction of what would happen without
much government. Again, I say that this would happen because it
would be the evolutionarily superior outcome. Please understand
that this has nothing to do with morality: in some environments,
criminal gangs are the evolutionarily superior outcome (e.g.
Chicago in the 1920's).

Those who could not speak (and had IQs less than 90) would be
treated exactly as we treated animals in the 19th century.

Okay---that's my prediction for what would occur if government
doesn't do something. Do you have suggestions for what you would
like government to do?

Lee

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From: Spudboy100@aol.com
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 8:29 PM
To: lcorbin@tsoft.com; eudaemonists@matus1976.com
Subject: Re: [eudaemonists] Worst Case Scenario

<<. Please understand
that this has nothing to do with morality: in some environments,
criminal gangs are the evolutionarily superior outcome (e.g.
Chicago in the 1920's). >>

En-too-see-asm's Bonk!

From: Dehede011@aol.com
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 8:39 PM
To: eudaemonists@matus1976.com
Subject: Re: [eudaemonists] Worst Case Scenario

In a message dated 8/15/2003 7:23:47 PM Central Standard Time,
lcorbin@tsoft.com writes: Okay---that's my prediction for what would occur if government
doesn't do something. Do you have suggestions for what you would like government
to do?

Lee,
Yes, I saw something just today on John Taylor Gatto's Odessey group
site
http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/newsletter/frames.htm
It appears that theoretically there are three responses to oppression.

1. Taking power away from the oppressor and giving it to the oppressed as a
class. Usually these folks dream of a dictatorship of the oppressed with
themselves as the dictator. We saw a lot of that theorizing in a list many of us
just frequented.
2. Taking power away from the oppressor and giving it to themselves so they
can protect the oppressed.
3. Taking power away from the oppressor and returning it to the oppressed.
Personally I see the revolution of '76 as being of the third type. I
would like to see us again take this direction. One of the problems is that
we have a huge percentage of our population that sincerely and deeply believe
they will be better off with a "savior" to defend them.
Ron Harrison

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From: Lee Corbin [lcorbin@tsoft.com]
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 9:00 PM
To: eudaemonists@matus1976.com
Subject: RE: [eudaemonists] Worst Case Scenario

Mitch writes

<<. Please understand
that this has nothing to do with morality: in some environments,
criminal gangs are the evolutionarily superior outcome (e.g.
Chicago in the 1920's). >>

> En-too-see-asm's Bonk!

Was there supposed to be a link under that first word?
It didn't come out that way. But if there was not,
then I don't get the reference. What is En-too-see-asm?

Lee

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From: Spudboy100@aol.com
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 9:17 PM
To: lcorbin@tsoft.com; eudaemonists@matus1976.com
Subject: Re: [eudaemonists] Worst Case Scenario

Lee:
<<Was there supposed to be a link under that first word?
It didn't come out that way. But if there was not,
then I don't get the reference. What is En-too-see-asm?

Lee>>

Oh! That was a reference to your depiction of criminal gangs in 1920's Chicago as being evolutionary, or darwinian in development. En-too-see-asm's was how
Robert Di Nero spoke the word, enthusiasm, when he played Al Capone, (Kevin Costner played Elliot Ness) and the film also featured, Sean Connery (as an Irish American police captain!). De Niro was giving a speech to his underworld friends on the sanctity of American baseball, when stepped up behind a rival, and bashed in the back of his head with a Louisville Slugger. "Baseball is one of my En-too-siasms'
-Bonk! " The other gangster is slumped over, and a trail of red wine or blood flows on the tablecloth.

See, if have to explain a joke.... ;-)

Mitch
From: Lee Corbin [lcorbin@tsoft.com]
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 9:27 PM
To: eudaemonists@matus1976.com
Subject: RE: [eudaemonists] Game Theory Problem

Michael wrote

> For more info on non-zero sum game theory, see Richard Dawkins 'The
> Selfish Gene' or Matt Ridleys' 'The Origins of Virtue' Both excellent
> books.

Oh yes, I read them both.

> On a side note, I was thoroughly disappointed that 'A Beautiful
> Mind' (A movie based on John Nash) made absolutely no attempt to
> explain how powerful and valuable his contributions were.

But the book "A Beautiful Mind" is great! It does a fine job
of describing to people who know nothing of mathematics what
Nash was doing. (Besides, the book is great on other grounds.)

I thought the movie stank for a different reason (though I do
agree with yours). It merged fantasy and reality---trying too
hard to get in his head without just telling what happened---
and as a result, I have no idea of whether or not he really
was ever at any point working for the government.

From the book (as far as I've read), he worked for RAND and
needed a security clearance, but that was it.

> I believe they could have easily been made presentable and
> understandable as a concept to the audience. His work
> created the entire field and concept of non-zero sum
> games, and laid the ground work to understand the evolution of
> cooperation and virtue.

Well, Von Neumann and Morgenstern had attempted to analyze
cooperative games. Also Von Neumann attempted to analyze
non-cooperative positive sum games by introducing a fictitious
player, so that then you could (I guess) treat it like a zero-
sum game.

But Nash evidently went quite a bit beyond that. Interestingly,
the author attributes it to his highly self-oriented individualistic
personality. He discovered the Nash Equilibrium which is a better
way of coming to a decision about who should get what. I can apply
it in some games, but I don't know how to apply it to the game
above.

Besides, in one game I will describe later, it doesn't seem to me to
provide a human-desirable answer. (And take "human" in the *widest*
way: sentient evolutionarily derived entity.)

Lee

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From: Lee Corbin [lcorbin@tsoft.com]
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 9:36 PM
To: Eudaemonists@Matus1976. Com
Subject: RE: [eudaemonists] Worst Case Scenario

Mitch writes about "en-too-zia-sms":

> Oh! That was a reference to your depiction of criminal gangs in 1920's
> Chicago as being evolutionary, or darwinian in development.
> En-too-see-asm's was how Robert Di Nero spoke the word, enthusiasm,
> "Baseball is one of my En-too-siasms' [when he smashed some guy]

Yeah, I caught a few minutes of that movie the other
night, but not that part. I had forgotten how good
the acting was... and even the pronunciation! ;-)

Lee

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From: MaxPlumm@aol.com
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 11:18 PM
To: eudaemonists@matus1976.com
Subject: [eudaemonists] [eudaemonists@matus1976.com] Front Page Mag

All-

A good article on the liberal equivalent of the National Review, the Nation, and its history of supporting monstrous totalitarian regimes.

FrontPage magazine.com

From: Spudboy100@aol.com
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 11:36 PM
To: MaxPlumm@aol.com; eudaemonists@matus1976.com
Subject: Re: [eudaemonists] [eudaemonists@matus1976.com] Front Page Mag

Max:
<<All-
A good article on the liberal equivalent of the National Review, the Nation, and its history of supporting monstrous totalitarian regimes.
FrontPage magazine.com >>

Max, at least The Nation has been consistantly wrong about foreign policy issues, for the last 80 years. They might be considered a perfect, reverse, compass. Just follow the advice of it's authors and do exactly the opposite. You can't get closer to True North, than that! Thanks.

Mitch

From: MaxPlumm@aol.com
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 11:53 PM
To: Spudboy100@aol.com; eudaemonists@matus1976.com
Subject: Re: [eudaemonists] [eudaemonists@matus1976.com] Front Page Mag

One of my favorite paragraphs from the article:

"At the conclusion of World War II, the political Left grew increasing vocal in its support for Stalin’s USSR. Predictably, The Nation’s articles began bleating the Stalinist line, arguing fervently against waging (or really retalitating in) the Cold War. Such erroneous inklings are clearly present in a 1930 edition of The Nation (vol.131, 3397), in which Oswald Garrison Villard questions whether or not, “the United States should make effective its disapproval of both the Russian and Italian dictatorships to aid in bringing them down in a collapse which would enable the masses of both countries to erect more democratic governments.” Rather than topple or contain oppressive monsters like Stalin and Mussolini, Villard suggests perhaps the West should address domestic issues such as reforming the United States’ penal system."

I forgot to mention in my initial post how much this passage reminded me of the debate Michael and I had over on Extropians with that profound geopolitical strategist and thinker, Damien Broderick. Mr. Broderick suggested it was inappropriate for "us" (the citizens of the US, Western Europe, and Australia) to be concerned with arbitrary executions in present day Vietnam, or the quality of life during the "Red Terror" regime of Mengistu Haile Mariam in Ethiopia from 1974-91, because we have pot smokers in US jails, and they are far more deserving of "rescue" than those suffering "outside our sphere of influence."

From: Lee Corbin [lcorbin@tsoft.com]
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 12:34 AM
To: eudaemonists@matus1976.com
Subject: [eudaemonists] Inalienable Rights

Reading "The Blank Slate" --- perhaps *the* book in my life in which
the author deploys more intelligence than in any other book I've ever
read --- Pinker nonetheless echoes a number of misconceptions.

He just echoed Jefferson's "Inalienable rights". (Pinker's entire point
of the chapter is that we must not allow our moral standards to depend
upon mere scientific truths that may or may not crop up in biology, a
very valid point.) But here, for example, it bugs me the way people
endorse something patently false.

"Inalienable" means (I just looked it up) "not subject to forfeiture",
not transferable. Well, duh, I have news for Mr. Jefferson and everyone
else. Just read a little history and you'll see how *alienable* any
rights, legal or otherwise, actually are!

What causes even the most intelligent among us to misspeak
about important issues???

Or am I missing something?

Lee

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From: Lee Corbin [lcorbin@tsoft.com]
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 1:10 AM
To: eudaemonists@matus1976.com
Subject: RE: [eudaemonists] Front Page Mag

Max writes

> I forgot to mention in my initial post how much this passage
> reminded me of the debate Michael and I had over on Extropians
> with that profound geopolitical strategist and thinker, Damien
> Broderick. Mr. Broderick suggested it was inappropriate for
> "us" (the citizens of the US, Western Europe, and Australia)
> to be concerned with arbitrary executions in present day
> Vietnam, or the quality of life during the "Red Terror" regime
> of Mengistu Haile Mariam in Ethiopia from 1974-91, because we
> have pot smokers in US jails, and they are far more deserving
> of "rescue" than those suffering "outside our sphere of
> influence."

What else do you expect from someone blinded by ideology?

Have you read "Treason" by Ann Coulter? But even without
that, one has to feel a little sorry for aged liberals
who grew up thinking the Rosenbergs and Alger Hiss innocent,
that there was moral symmetry between Communist regimes
and ours; and who have been feeling the FULL WEIGHT of
the pendulum as it swings back. Many suffer much more
even than Damien, and are reduced to shrill, unthinking
demagoguery.

However, I am much more selfishly concerned with the
following. By what means can we ascertain that we in
in 2003 are not making similar errors in judgment and
perception to theirs of 1953?

Had leftists had the intelligence in 1953 to ask the same
questions about 1903, they might have saved themselves.

Lee

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From: Lee Corbin [lcorbin@tsoft.com]
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 2:23 AM
To: eudaemonists@matus1976.com
Subject: RE: [eudaemonists] Front Page Mag

Yes, especially effective I found the presentation of the liberals'
views on North Korea from the fifties through the eighties. They
have to be pretty embarrassed about that!

Lee

-----Original Message-----
From: MaxPlumm@aol.com [mailto:MaxPlumm@aol.com]
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 8:18 PM
To: eudaemonists@matus1976.com
Subject: [eudaemonists] [eudaemonists@matus1976.com] Front Page Mag

All-

A good article on the liberal equivalent of the National Review, the Nation, and its history of supporting monstrous totalitarian regimes.

FrontPage magazine.com

From: Lee Corbin [lcorbin@tsoft.com]
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 2:29 AM
To: eudaemonists@matus1976.com
Subject: RE: [eudaemonists] Game Theory Problem

This link describes Nash and his work rather
well, leaving out very little of the technical
detail in the book (which is not a whole lot).

http://pup.princeton.edu/chapters/i7238.html

Lee

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lee Corbin [mailto:lcorbin@tsoft.com]
> Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 6:27 PM
> To: eudaemonists@matus1976.com
> Subject: RE: [eudaemonists] Game Theory Problem
>
>
> Michael wrote
>
> > For more info on non-zero sum game theory, see Richard Dawkins 'The
> > Selfish Gene' or Matt Ridleys' 'The Origins of Virtue' Both excellent
> > books.

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From: Dehede011@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 11:24 AM
To: eudaemonists@matus1976.com
Subject: Re: [eudaemonists] Front Page Mag

In a message dated 8/16/2003 1:23:04 AM Central Standard Time, lcorbin@tsoft.com writes: Yes, especially effective I found the presentation of the liberals' views on North Korea from the fifties through the eighties. They have to be pretty embarrassed about that!

### Do you remember that yesterday I discovered an article detailing the three categories for the removal of oppression? Very briefly they were:
1. Those who wish to remove power from the oppressor and give it to the oppressed as a class. These usually become dictators on behalf of the people.
2. Those who wish to remove power from the oppressor and give the power to themselves.
3. Those who wish to remove power from the oppressor and give it to the people as individuals.
The left portrays us as oppressors and wishes to go to either a class one or class two government -- that is what they have to sell.
There is a two hundred year old modern history of failed attempts by the left to set up their form of government. They have no successes. At best they have some surviving governments that are on a downward trajectory. Those governments have ruled a few dozen countries, several hundred "settlements" and probably thousands of apartment communes -- all failures.
Obviously the left wing can not sell that record of failure. So rather than get trapped by reality they change the name of everything, describe their new system in very abstract terms and start all over.
But your question was about embarrassment? The 200 year history of their movement is that they never get embarrassed.
But why don't they suffer embarrassment? Even having Kruschev lay out the miserable history of Stalin didn't stop them. I think we have to look to Ayn Rand for the explanation. Please correct me if I am wrong, I haven't read Miss Rand for some years. As I recall her analysis there are two major motives for those advocating the class one and class two solutions. First is the thug at heart that hopes either to become the dictator or at least very close to the top of that pyramid. They may be motivated by a lust for power, wealth or sex (the three traditionals) but the end game is the power. Second is the mooch that hopes someone will give him something he couldn't earn by himself.
Those two classes will find the attraction of their goals more powerful than the embarrassment of any past failures. They will invent new terms to describe themselves, deny their parentage, and in glowing abstract terms start selling their snake oil all over.
Ron Harrison

From: matus [matus@matus1976.com]
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 11:55 AM
To: eudaemonists@matus1976.com
Subject: RE: [eudaemonists] Bell Curve and IQ

> Ron writes
>
> > [Lee writes]
> >
> > What rights are given to whom? And I wonder what happens if we
> > just let nature take its course (but that would definitely mean
> > slavery just for starters!).
> >
> > That is not academic. The Bell Curve and Richard Epstein
> both warn us
> > of rapidly (my characterization) with the both 5% on the IQ
> curve. We are
> > rapidly approaching the day when those folks are totally
> unemployable and their
> > choice is either living in public housing on the dole or
> being an inmate

Ron, I think you confuse two separate issues, unemployABLE and choosing
to not work. The growing attitude amongst the ghetto and low-income
cultures is the exact opposite of working hard to accomplish things.
This is not just among blacks, but mostly low income neighborhoods
(which blacks comprise the majority of for various reasons) On this
subject, I would highly recommend Dinesh Disouza's book 'Whats so great
about America'

As Max Plumm may elaborate on, the democrats have fostered a welfare
culture amongst the low income houses, essentially punishing people
financially for staying in traditional nuclear families (single parent
households number in the 70% range for blacks today, while in the 50's -
late 70's it was around 20%) Blacks born to middle class families
consistently perform worse than Asians who were born in low income
neighborhoods. ALL of this has to do with culture, I doubt any kind of
genetic influence plays any significant role in this sad trend.

Lee said:
>
> True, in our Real Life situation, we are lucky that humans
> are quite a discrete group. I am reading Steven Pinker's
> totally great and awesome "The Blank Slate". He really puts
> Lewontin, Gould, and the rest of them in their place. It's
> quite obvious that he agrees with The Bell Curve.
>

OH MY GOD! ARE YOU SAYING BLACKS ARE INFERIOR! This is harmful to the
community Lee, Your booted!!! (Whoa, sorry channeling crazy extropians
again)

Anyway, As I said above, I highly doubt any genetic difference plays a
significant role in the intelligence distribution amongst races. Its
certainly scientifically plausible that there is a correlation, but with
any genetic influence few genes , if any, play absolute control over us.
Instead I think certainly cultures are fostering attitudes of laziness,
demonizing intelligence, and building self esteem purely on false
external premises.

I have yet to read 'The Bell Curve' or Goulds counter, but I take your
word that Pinker presents a compelling case that there are genetic
distributions amongst races (all races are, after all, genetically
different) But when any statistical average, the predictive power is
inverse to the sample size.

Michael Dickey

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From: matus [matus@matus1976.com]
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 11:59 AM
To: eudaemonists@matus1976.com
Subject: RE: [eudaemonists] Game Theory Problem

> Michael wrote
>
> > For more info on non-zero sum game theory, see Richard Dawkins 'The
> > Selfish Gene' or Matt Ridleys' 'The Origins of Virtue'
> Both excellent
> > books.
>
> Oh yes, I read them both.
>
> > On a side note, I was thoroughly disappointed that 'A
> Beautiful Mind'
> > (A movie based on John Nash) made absolutely no attempt to
> explain how
> > powerful and valuable his contributions were.
>
> But the book "A Beautiful Mind" is great! It does a fine job
> of describing to people who know nothing of mathematics what
> Nash was doing. (Besides, the book is great on other grounds.)

Good to know, I shall have to read it since I don't think I understand
his contributions as well as I could or should.

>
> I thought the movie stank for a different reason (though I do
> agree with yours). It merged fantasy and reality---trying
> too hard to get in his head without just telling what
> happened--- and as a result, I have no idea of whether or not
> he really was ever at any point working for the government.
>

I remember watching not knowing the premise of it (that he was a
schizophrenic), but the second they started talking about a Nazi H bomb
I figured out that nearly all of his government work was hallucinatory.
As I understood, post war intelligence reported that we spent more money
spying on the Nazi nuclear bomb program than they actually spent on the
program. Perhaps because they didn't think to highly of that Jewish
science?

Michael Dickey

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From: Lee Corbin [lcorbin@tsoft.com]
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 12:55 PM
To: eudaemonists@matus1976.com
Subject: RE: [eudaemonists] Bell Curve and IQ

Michael writes

> > Ron writes
> > > The Bell Curve and Richard Epstein
> > > both warn us of rapidly (my charact-
> > > erization) with the both 5% on the IQ
> > > curve. We are rapidly approaching
> > > the day when those folks are totally
> > > unemployable and their choice is either
> > > living in public housing on the dole or
> > > being an inmate

Just this morning, I resolved to investigate
this with the other active minds here, and
so I go over to my computer and find, quite
coincidentally:

> Ron, I think you confuse two separate issues, unemployABLE and choosing
> to not work. The growing attitude amongst the ghetto and low-income
> cultures is the exact opposite of working hard to accomplish things.
> This is not just among blacks, but mostly low income neighborhoods
> (which blacks comprise the majority of for various reasons) On this
> subject, I would highly recommend Dinesh Disouza's book 'Whats so great
> about America'

But there are also two issues here:
(1) (Ron's): Given the reality of the present distributions
of people with bad attitudes and liberals with
bad philosophies, what will happen (or what should
we do)?
(2) (Michael's): What is the true explanation for what is
going on, and what memes should be spread
(adopted) to fix it?

> As Max Plumm may elaborate on, the democrats have fostered a welfare
> culture amongst the low income houses, essentially punishing people
> financially for staying in traditional nuclear families (single parent
> households number in the 70% range for blacks today, while in the 50's -
> late 70's it was around 20%) Blacks born to middle class families
> consistently perform worse than Asians who were born in low income
> neighborhoods. ALL of this has to do with culture, I doubt any kind of
> genetic influence plays any significant role in this sad trend.

I am sure that there *is* a genetic component. Asian
kids in California, for example, just think better than
white kids. Statistically speaking, of course.

But I agree that our present real *problem* would be
ameliorated to an infinite degree if people's attitudes
(e.g., the poor) were improved.

> Anyway, As I said above, I highly doubt any genetic difference plays a
> significant role in the intelligence distribution amongst races. It's
> certainly scientifically plausible that there is a correlation, but with
> any genetic influence few genes, if any, play absolute control over us.
> Instead I think certainly cultures are fostering attitudes of laziness,
> demonizing intelligence, and building self esteem purely on false
> external premises.

Yes. There is also a deep economic issue here (that I
know will provoke argument here). If country A is
inferior to country B in terms of being able to produce
commodities, then it is still optimal for country A to
make *whatever* it makes best, and to trade with country
B, even if this helps country A significantly more than
it helps B, so long as B does get better off. (This takes
us back to game theory issues!)

> I have yet to read 'The Bell Curve' or Gould's counter,

Forget Gould. He is ancient history already. Read
Pinker if you have time.

To read The Bell Curve, follow this instruction which
was originated by a fellow in my book discussion group
who was pressed for time. I checked, and it will work.

Each chapter of The Bell Curve begins with a page long
italicized portion. This brilliantly summarizes the
contents of the chapter. Skip the rest of the chapter
because it basically only provides the data for the
conclusions of the italicized portion.

Lee

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From: Lee Corbin [lcorbin@tsoft.com]
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 1:07 PM
To: matus
Subject: RE: [eudaemonists] Game Theory Problem

Michael writes

> > I thought the movie stank for a different reason (though I do
> > agree with yours). It merged fantasy and reality---trying
> > too hard to get in his head without just telling what
> > happened--- and as a result, I have no idea of whether or not
> > he really was ever at any point working for the government.
>
> I remember watching not knowing the premise of it (that he was a
> schizophrenic), but the second they started talking about a Nazi H bomb

No, I'm pretty certain that the [imaginary] spooks said that
there was a Russian conspiracy to bring in A-bombs into American
cities across our borders. I really perked up at that.
Naively, I thought that I was learning something about
the 1950's cold war.

But who knows exactly what fantasies Nash had? This was
pure invention on the part of the screenwriters. IMO.

> I figured out that nearly all of his government work was hallucinatory.
> As I understood, post war intelligence reported that we spent more money
> spying on the Nazi nuclear bomb program than they actually spent on the
> program. Perhaps because they didn't think to highly of that Jewish
> science?

Making bombs is hardly Jewish science. ;-) Some German
physicists didn't want to learn Einsteinian relativity
because it was "Jewish physics". This harmed them, but
maybe not so bad about the bomb. They were hurt much
more by the exodus of top-flight scientists (most of
them Jewish) to the Anglosphere. But Heisenburg's
efforts to build the bomb were doomed anyway. Only the
U.S. had the industrial capacity to build bombs at that
time. The U.S. was so powerful that it built two (2!)
of them! One was an American type bomb with American
engineers grinding out a gaseous diffusion bomb (the
Little Boy) and a totally separate type European bomb
(plutonium) that was greatly assisted by all the math
talent coming from Europe (the Fat Man). The American
bomb was so straightforward (despite the incredible
effort) that they didn't even need to test it---they
just dropped it on Hiroshima. The European bomb was
very complex, and so they tested it at Alamogordo first.

Lee

From: Dehede011@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 1:24 PM
To: matus@matus1976.com
Subject: Re: [eudaemonists] Bell Curve and IQ

Michael,
You wrote, "Ron, I think you confuse two separate issues, unemployABLE
and choosing to not work. The growing attitude amongst the ghetto and
low-income
cultures is the exact opposite of working hard to accomplish things. This is
not just among blacks, but mostly low income neighborhoods (which blacks
comprise the majority of for various reasons) On this subject, I would highly
recommend Dinesh Disouza's book 'Whats so great about America'

Michael,
Nope, I am talking about the bottom 5% on the IQ curve. As to the
mischief that has been played by politicians I agree with you.
Maybe I am overly sensitive to the issure of the job market for the
bottom
5% of the Bell Curve. However, I spent my career working in factories. At
last count my consulting experience had taken me into over 100 factories to
work for a period of time. That was about 10 years before I retired. After
that I got tired of counting.
One of the very noticeable things about the introduction of Japanese
Management Techniques has been the disappearance of the little service jobs
within industry. It used to be that even a small factory or shop would have a
janitor. Today most of those jobs are gone. It used to be that every filling
station had a number of "pump jocks" I did that to get through school. Now
those are gone. Those were the jobs the bottom rung of the IQ ladder depended
upon for employment.
But, you are right, above that level you do find the ones that don't
want to work.
Ron h.
From: Lee Corbin [lcorbin@tsoft.com]
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 1:31 PM
To: eudaemonists@matus1976.com
Subject: RE: [eudaemonists] Bell Curve and IQ

Ron wrote

> The Bell Curve and Richard Epstein both warn
> us of rapidly (my characterization) with the
> both 5% on the IQ curve. We are rapidly
> approaching the day when those folks are
> totally unemployable and their choice is
> either living in public housing on the
> dole or being an inmate.

I have a new thought, thanks to the existence of
this list. For years, the paradox I have occasionally
referred to is the above, namely, (i) can you imagine
any consistent way that things might be in the future
(ii) can you, given (i), see any possible way we could
get there? I readily admitted failure here.

Okay, so let's suppose Michael's problem is solved,
and somehow everyone gets religion. This could
happen, though it is unlikely. Suppose that Bush
triumphs again, the liberals go into decline, and
everyone sees that Jesse Jackson and his type are
wrong and worthless. *Everyone* knuckles down and
works as diligently as possible; the libraries are
crowded with poor people attempting to improve.
Then here is the bad thing that would happen:

Poor people do their level best, taking work at
whatever wage is offered. The baskets they make,
the servant work around the house they do, the mass
scenes in movies, brings in only a pittance, and
they can afford to live only in tents and must walk
five miles a day to and from work. Their problem is
their IQ and failure to have learned a lot when
their brains were young and flexible.

But even though *their* children learn better, it
is too late, because advanced AIs make being a
servant not useful any longer, make crowd scenes
in movies unnecessary, and make baskets way better
than can be made by hand for almost free. As Ron
says, slowly everyone gets squeezed out except
the GT (gifted and talented).

Solution 1: the GT become so rich (their machines
make so much) that charity for the rest
of us gives us all the books, videos,
VR, drugs, and computers we could want.

Solution 2: the GT are taxed to provide all that to
the rest of us.

Lee

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From: Dehede011@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 1:36 PM
To: eudaemonists@matus1976.com
Subject: Fwd: [eudaemonists] Bell Curve and IQ

Sorry guys, I forgot.
Ron Harrison
From: Dehede011@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 1:36 PM
To: eudaemonists@matus1976.com
Subject: Fwd: [eudaemonists] Front Page Mag

OOps found another that I didn't address correctly
From: matus [matus@matus1976.com]
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 1:54 PM
To: eudaemonists@matus1976.com
Subject: [eudaemonists] War on Terrorism, last great war

Max said:

All-

A good article on the liberal equivalent of the National Review,
the Nation, and its history of supporting monstrous totalitarian
regimes.

From that article

"However, just as the end of the Cold War justified the Reagan
Administration's firm hand to the international community, the spread of
democracy in the Middle East, much to the chagrin of the political Left,
will be the Bush Administration's legacy. "

I argued many times on the extropy list that this war, the 'War on
Terrorism' will be the last great war the world will see (unless we come
across some communist murderous expansionist alien civilization
*shiver*) Primarily because this is essentially a war between the most
fundamentally opposed idealogies, stagnating oppresion, and west
influenced technology and economic progress. Of course, the Luddits may
pose a threat in the future, and we can expect no help in combatting
them from the donothing extropians.

In the spirit of Mr Lorreys predictions, I predict that Iraq will be a
stable successful market based democracy, and additionally that not only
will Iraq become a stable progressive western democracy, that other
totalitarian islamic regimes will start to topple around them, since
their oppressive leaders will no longer be able to convince its people
that their woes lie solely in the blame of the oppression of the west.
Here, they will see, that a democratic market based economy will lead
them to much better lives, and their discontent over their
fundamentalist regimes will grow and grow as the people of Iraq live
better and better lives. I am sure the vast majority of the surrounding
arab populations have adapted a 'wait and see' attitude, but no doubt
governments are starting to get concerned that their time will be
running out. Unfortunately, this would give neighboring totalitarian
governments incentive to make sure a democratic progressive Iraq is not
successful. But as I said on my extropy posts, I believe Iraq will
become 'A Shinning beacon of democracy in an Arab sea of tyranny and
oppression' Gives us ten years and well be taking vactions to Iraq.

Hopefully I will have as good of a track record at predictions as Mike
Lorrey.

Michael Dickey

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From: Lee Corbin [lcorbin@tsoft.com]
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 2:05 PM
To: Eudaemonists@Matus1976. Com
Subject: RE: [eudaemonists] Front Page Mag

Ron writes

> [Lee writes]
> > However, I am much more selfishly concerned
> > with the following. By what means can we
> > ascertain that we in in 2003 are not making
> > similar errors in judgment and perception
> > to theirs of 1953?
>
> You have asked a real "wow" question. Actually I
> break your question into two parts:
> 1. Can we save ourselves from the reality of offending?
> 2. Can we save ourselves from the charge of offending?

I do not understand how the issue of
offending others connects with all this.
I disapprove of offending others,
unless they are offended by opinions
different from theirs.

I care only about the truth, and am not
yet into devising strategy for how to
spring the truth on liberals in an
unoffensive way, if that is where you
are coming from.

Lee

> With good judgement we can avoid giving actual
> offense. It will be difficult to do this in
> each and every case. We are too many and we
> will make too many judgements to avoid wrong
> sometime someplace. We have our occasional
> dimwit. We can't prevent those people from
> occasionally doing something wrong. But
> hopefully we can correct most of those errors
> before they do great harm. When it comes to
> the charge of giving offense there is no way
> on Earth we can avoid that. The left uses
> false charges as a technique everyday and
> they will use it on us also.
> Ron Harrison

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From: Lee Corbin [lcorbin@tsoft.com]
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 2:32 PM
To: eudaemonists@matus1976.com
Subject: RE: [eudaemonists] Front Page Mag

Ron wrote

> There is a two hundred year old modern history of failed
> attempts by the left to set up their form of government.
> They have no successes....

> But your question was about embarrassment? The 200 year
> history of their movement is that they never get
> embarrassed.

> But why don't they suffer embarrassment?

No particular individual exhibits embarrassment
unless he is a very superior individual. Physicists
who could not accept Einstein's relativity were not
embarrassed; they just got old and died. A friend
of mine's father---a diehard leftist of the 1950's
---died in 1986, still convinced that Stalin was
innocent and it was all a CIA plot to defame him.
My still-very-liberal friend is embarrassed about
this. That same liberal friend retorted to me after 9-11
when I said "Well, the Church committee wrecked the
CIA."

"That was a mistake," he conceded. So it *does*
happen. My friend, however, will go to his grave
convinced that capitalism is unfair, and that
poverty is the root of all our ills. Once we
adopt ideologies, we cannot learn easily.

> I think we have to look to Ayn Rand for the
> explanation. Please correct me if I am wrong,
> I haven't read Miss Rand for some years. As
> I recall her analysis there are two major
> motives for those advocating the class one
> and class two solutions.

1. Those who wish to remove power from the
oppressor and give it to the oppressed
as a class. These usually become
dictators on behalf of the people.
2. Those who wish to remove power from
the oppressor and give the power to
themselves.
3. Those who wish to remove power from
the oppressor and give it to the people
as individuals.
-Ron Harrison quote from somewhere

> First is the thug at heart that hopes either
> to become the dictator or at least very close
> to the top of that pyramid. They may be
> motivated by a lust for power, wealth or sex
> (the three traditionals) but the end game is
> the power.

People are the same everywhere. Bush and
Clinton are no different. They have just
internalized from a young age that you may
defame your opponents, but you can't
arrest and kill them. Lenin was no thug,
but he had to act like one to stay in power.

> Second is the mooch that hopes someone
> will give him something he couldn't earn
> by himself.

Yes, many proles vote Democratic to get a piece
of the pie given to them on a silver platter.

> Those two classes will find the attraction
> of their goals more powerful than the
> embarrassment of any past failures. They
> will invent new terms to describe themselves,
> deny their parentage, and in glowing abstract
> terms start selling their snake oil all over.

Yeah, but like the Bell Curve says (I am
re-reading the last chapter at your suggestion---
you finally got through my thick skull with your
nagging about the GT), they're possibly irrelevant.
The well-to-do and smart classes are and will be
acquiring more and more power. Who knows what
they will do?

Lee

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From: Dehede011@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 2:48 PM
To: eudaemonists@matus1976.com
Subject: Re: [eudaemonists] Bell Curve and IQ

Lee,
YOu offered us Solutions 1 & 2. Let me offer a third one.
Solution #3. Genetic engineering progresses to the point we can lift some or
all of the unemployable people into the normal or hopefully the GT ranks.
Ron Harrison

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From: Dehede011@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 2:58 PM
To: eudaemonists@matus1976.com
Subject: Re: [eudaemonists] Front Page Mag

In a message dated 8/16/2003 1:04:45 PM Central Standard Time,
lcorbin@tsoft.com writes: I do not understand how the issue of offending others connects
with all this. I disapprove of offending others, unless they are offended by
opinions different from theirs.

Lee,
I am concerned with actually giving offense to inoffensive people.
But I don't think we will give offense nearly so often as we will be accused of
it.
Ron Harrison

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From: matus [matus@matus1976.com]
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 3:10 PM
To: eudaemonists@matus1976.com
Subject: [eudaemonists] "Countering anti-extropic memes"

Since I hoped this list would be friendly to productive endeavours I
wanted to run an idea I had by you guys. I posted this on the extropy
list a while back to no fanfare whatsoever (surprising I know)

> Natasha said:
>
> "We may never change the way a many in the Greenpeace
> community or the Rifkin community, or the Leon Cass
> community, but we can design ways that will help people
> communicate about the problems more effectively."
>
> This brings up a potential method for countering these memes
> I have tossed around occasionally.
>
> Suggestion, list the major proponents of non-extropic memes
> (start with obvious ones to minimize debate over extropic vs.
> non extropic) and keep an eye on their public appearances.
> If they are to be on a radio show, have some good counters
> ready to be called in and voiced. If they publish an
> editorial, find an extropian nearby to publish a counter. If
> they are on TV, hope it's a call in show and voice opposing
> opinions, or ask powerful questions to get listeners
> thinking. If they are to appear publicly, put a few fliers up
> outlining counter arguments, send letters to editorials of
> local publications, be present at public lectures to ask
> tough questions, etc. etc.
>
> People assisting in this effort might take up an individual
> anti-extropic person as his 'target' and just update other
> volunteers relevant to next appearance as to anti-extropic
> persons appearance. Each person could pick his one target to
> get intimately familiar with said targets typical arguments,
> and could assist others in preparing questions, flyers, or
> commentaries ready to be launched at the anti-extropic
> individual. Each individual would be responsible for
> responding to any anti-extropic memes that arise In his/her
> immediate vicinity (say, area code) Obviously in more
> populace areas more volunteers would be needed so as to not
> monopolize the time of any one volunteer. I think with
> enough people, this could have a pretty significant positive
> impact, yet still only require 10 - 20 minutes each week on
> average from volunteers.
>
> Michael Dickey
>

Comments? Bad idea, good idea?

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From: Lee Corbin [lcorbin@tsoft.com]
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 3:50 PM
To: Eudaemonists@Matus1976. Com
Subject: RE: [eudaemonists] "Countering anti-extropic memes"

Michael discusses his ideas for anti-Luddite and
anti-Extropian activism:

> list a while back to no fanfare whatsoever (surprising I know)

Not surprising it got no responses. People favorably
inclined just probably acted instead of talked.

> Suggestion, list the major proponents of non-extropic memes
> (start with obvious ones to minimize debate over extropic vs.
> non extropic) and keep an eye on their public appearances.
> If they are to be on a radio show, have some good counters
> ready to be called in and voiced. If they publish an
> editorial, find an extropian nearby to publish a counter.

This requires coordination. You, Natasha, Mike Lorrey,
and some others may have both the time, the energy, and
the inclination for this. When I read this on the
list, I didn't understand that you meant *geographical*
action teams. Hmm. Maybe not a bad idea for our activists.

> If they are on TV, hope it's a call in show and voice opposing
> opinions, or ask powerful questions to get listeners
> thinking. If they are to appear publicly, put a few fliers up
> outlining counter arguments, send letters to editorials of
> local publications, be present at public lectures to ask
> tough questions, etc. etc.

I do not know why neither Mike Lorrey nor Natasha responded.
It sounds like an Extropian "strike team" might have
potential. But it would take people's time.

> People assisting in this effort might take up an individual
> anti-extropic person as his 'target' and just update other
> volunteers relevant to next appearance as to anti-extropic
> persons appearance. Each person could pick his one target to
> get intimately familiar with said targets typical arguments,
> and could assist others in preparing questions, flyers, or
> commentaries ready to be launched at the anti-extropic
> individual.

Rush Limbaugh occasionally complains about "marathon
callers" or something---I think that I have got the
wrong term. Anyway, some collection of leftists that
tries to either pester rightwing talk show hosts, or
coordinate call-ins cogently presenting alternative
views.

> Each individual would be responsible for
> responding to any anti-extropic memes that arise In his/her
> immediate vicinity (say, area code) Obviously in more
> populace areas more volunteers would be needed so as to not
> monopolize the time of any one volunteer. I think with
> enough people, this could have a pretty significant positive
> impact, yet still only require 10 - 20 minutes each week on
> average from volunteers.

Man, I get so sick of myself hastily reading an email,
and then thinking I got the main idea, and starting
to respond. I now sheepishly see that you were ahead
of me.

Anyway, maybe Mike Lorrey will tell you what he thinks.

Lee

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From: Lee Corbin [lcorbin@tsoft.com]
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 3:56 PM
To: eudaemonists@matus1976.com
Subject: RE: [eudaemonists] Bell Curve and IQ

Ron writes

> You offered us Solutions 1 & 2. Let me offer a third one.
> Solution #3. Genetic engineering progresses to the point
> we can lift some or all of the unemployable people into
> the normal or hopefully the GT ranks.

That's the right idea, but I doubt it can play out the
way you think. The same tech that can raise an IQ 80
person to 130 can raise an IQ 110 person to 170 or 180,
I'll bet. Life is not fair, and the more you have, the
(vastly) more you get.

Still, that's just what we should do: everyone, especially
me, should be much, *much*, much smarter.

Lee

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From: Dehede011@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 4:12 PM
To: eudaemonists@matus1976.com
Subject: Re: [eudaemonists] "Countering anti-extropic memes"

In a message dated 8/16/2003 2:10:08 PM Central Standard Time,
matus@matus1976.com writes: I think with enough people, this could have a pretty significant
positive impact, yet still only require 10 - 20 minutes each week on average
from volunteers.

You might like to look up:
http://www.premier1.net/~barkonwd/school/DELPHI.HTM

It is called the Delphi Technique. Even when we aren't facing the
Delphi Technique the article still describes a very useful technique for
disrupting anyone that is trying to feed us baloney.
Ron Harrison

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From: Spudboy100@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 4:59 PM
To: matus@matus1976.com
Subject: Re: [eudaemonists] War on Terrorism, last great war

From your keyboard to Allah's ear's Mike. Being a pessimist, I will fill this post with such.

1) Iraq, being encapsulated in Islamic and Arab culture will be ever corrupt, ever violent. The best we can hope for, in the next 25 years there, is a stable regime, that represses Jihadism.

2) Michael, joining Frank Fukuyama, is forecasting the end of history, may indeed be correct that Terrorism will be the last large conflict fought for the next dozen centuries. However, what starts out as a battle against militant Islam (their battle against us) may end up with something equally as bad, with Nuclear Guerilla warfare, being funded and fought by crazzies in another generation. Maybe they will be "kluxers" or Neo-commies, who will attempt to throw the final punch against the Republic?
I don't know; however I do hope that the Islamist fundamentalist threat gets ended soon.

Michael writes:
<< the spirit of Mr Lorreys predictions, I predict that Iraq will be a
stable successful market based democracy, and additionally that not only
will Iraq become a stable progressive western democracy, that other
totalitarian islamic regimes will start to topple around them, since
their oppressive leaders will no longer be able to convince its people
that their woes lie solely in the blame of the oppression of the west.
Here, they will see, that a democratic market based economy will lead
them to much better lives, and their discontent over their
fundamentalist regimes will grow and grow as the people of Iraq live
better and better lives. I am sure the vast majority of the surrounding
arab populations have adapted a 'wait and see' attitude, but no doubt
governments are starting to get concerned that their time will be
running out. Unfortunately, this would give neighboring totalitarian
governments incentive to make sure a democratic progressive Iraq is not
successful. But as I said on my extropy posts, I believe Iraq will
become 'A Shinning beacon of democracy in an Arab sea of tyranny and
oppression' Gives us ten years and well be taking vactions to Iraq.

Hopefully I will have as good of a track record at predictions as Mike
Lorrey.

Michael Dickey>>

From: Spudboy100@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 8:48 PM
To: eudaemonists@matus1976.com; lcorbin@tsoft.com
Subject: Re: [eudaemonists] Bell Curve and IQ

Appologies to Lee since I merely replied to his post.

Lee:
<<But even though *their* children learn better, it
is too late, because advanced AIs make being a
servant not useful any longer, make crowd scenes
in movies unnecessary, and make baskets way better
than can be made by hand for almost free. As Ron
says, slowly everyone gets squeezed out except
the GT (gifted and talented).>>

Here are 3 dark horse developments that alter your scenario, Lee. Any one these occurances would alter your forecast. All this would put the human species on a completely level playing field. Throw in social presssure to "act white" or even better "act Asian" to achieve a better education; plus funding of public and private improvements in training and classroom education and we'd be on our way. Where, I wonder?

Case 1> Moravec's 3rd generation robots arrive decades or centuries later than he
predicts, because of the difficulty of AI and Robotic engineering.

Case 2> Intelligence gets "evened out" between now and 2150 AD because of the
technology of 'Brain Grafting' which is really genetic engineering where
people's standard I.Q. can be lifted 12-20 points, especially in
mathematics.

Case 3> Externally used or internally implanted supercomputers, using material we
only dream of now, lifts the human intelligence and capabilities, nearly 100
undeviated I.Q. points. This results in the rise of technical applications,
that people on this list drool about!

-Mitch

From: Lee Corbin [lcorbin@tsoft.com]
Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2003 11:17 AM
To: eudaemonists@matus1976.com
Subject: RE: [eudaemonists] Bell Curve and IQ

Mitch writes

> Apologies to Lee since I merely replied to his post.

Oh, no apology necessary! I have done this at least once
myself, and only discovered the error after someone replied
to my message. We will continue to make this error. So
if you notice that someone has just replied to you, then
the right thing---I guess---is just to tell them to try
again! :-)

> [Lee writes]
> > But even though *their* children learn better, it
> > is too late, because advanced AIs make being a
> > servant not useful any longer, make crowd scenes
> > in movies unnecessary, and make baskets way better
> > than can be made by hand for almost free. As Ron
> > says, slowly everyone gets squeezed out except
> > the GT (gifted and talented).

> Here are 3 dark horse developments that alter your scenario, Lee.

Excellent.

> Any one these occurrences would alter your forecast. All this
> would put the human species on a completely level playing field.
> Throw in social pressure to "act white" or even better "act Asian"

Ah what a relief to know you and I won't be bugged by whiners
complaining about remarks like that!

> to achieve a better education; plus funding of public and
> private improvements in training and classroom education
> and we'd be on our way. Where, I wonder?

It all sounds so great. Sure it's non-optimal compared to
(i) the establishment of a benevolent Singularity and (ii)
nanotech that unfreezes me from my cryonic suspension, but
it is a LOT better than some other things that could happen.
Besides, having studied Rome recently, I am just thrilled
to be *here* at all, and anything that can perpetuate *this*
is just marvelous.

> Case 1> Moravec's 3rd generation robots arrive
> decades or centuries later than he
> predicts, because of the difficulty
> of AI and Robotic engineering.

This leaves us in the status quo, where the usual
think-tanks go. The U.S. has GNP growth of about
3 percent a year forever, and things---good now---
just keep getting better.

> Case 2> Intelligence gets "evened out" between
> now and 2150 AD because of the technology
> of 'Brain Grafting' which is really
> genetic engineering where people's
> standard I.Q. can be lifted 12-20
> points, especially in mathematics.

This satisfies society's (and my) urge towards
egalitarianism. Now despite that, I do have to
admit that it is a shame that not *everyone*
can get smarter in your scenario, but you have
given a plausible way that it might happen.

If so, then the U.S. GNP probably starts to rise
at 4 to 5 percent a year (all those memetically
challenged people start to contribute too! how
great!).

> Case 3> Externally used or internally implanted
> supercomputers, using material we
> only dream of now, lifts the human
> intelligence and capabilities, nearly 100
> undeviated I.Q. points. This results in
> the rise of technical applications, that
> people on this list drool about!

Your last two scenarios would be great as regards
my prospects for surviving this century. Are there
any challenging questions that arise with respect
to these scenarios?

I guess that we have to explore the impacts of the
Murray/Herrnstein class stratification that Ron
describes. More about this later when I finish
the last chapter of The Bell Curve.

Lee

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From: Lee Corbin [lcorbin@tsoft.com]
Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2003 1:51 PM
To: eudaemonists@matus1976.com
Subject: [eudaemonists] The Survivors

I just had an interesting phone discussion with Robert
Bradbury (I had several questions concerning Dyson
shells and Dyson sphere---by the way, he's pretty
outraged by the current state of the Ex list).

He mentioned how only China and India have much
incentive to get into space now, and how historically
it'll probably be they who dominate the colonization
of the solar system.

I'm afraid that this is all true. The U.S. is
demographically doomed, (like Europe), and had a
glorious and rather long lived past, but not much
of a future. Well, such is life, and for many of
us we just don't get to be immortal. But so be it.

Now, some ethnic groups appear to have "what it
takes" to be highly technological and some don't.
Regardless of the birth rates in the Arab world,
they'll never match the Chinese supremacy in
coming centuries. (Well, "never" is a long time,
but "something" is sure to happen first, e.g.,
uploading, Singularity, or something.)

In the book "World on Fire" the author Amy Chua
describes what's happening in other countries and
how economically dominate minorities rule almost
everywhere. All throughout southeast Asia, for
example, it's the Chinese. In Latin America, it's
a small number of white people on top (both
economically, and (there) politically).

The U.S. will become in about 50 years like the
Latin American countries with a very dominant white
minority. But China and India will continue to have
economically dominant *majorities*. They can attain
what the U.S. has now.

Japan prided itself on its Go players, their equivalent
of chess. Japanese Go was the strongest in the world
for more than a century. But recently the Chinese have